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Server Time: 11/22/2008 1:24:52 AM PACIFIC |
 Help! - Proper Poker Play & Etiquette (kind of long), jdavidk, 23. Jul 2003 06:24 | ||
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| Help! - Proper Poker Play & Etiquette I am in a friendly tri-weekly game of poker with four of my friends. Every three weeks we get together and play $0.25 - $1.00 limit cards. For the first two hours we play Texas Hold-em, but get this. With NO Blinds. I can not convince these guys to use the blinds and it is blowing everything that I have learned out the window. I want to play the game correctly but they are all wishy-washy about it and just do not want to do it. I suggested going $0.10 and $0.25 blinds but one guy did not want to "mess with dimes" and with us all just bringing $20 to the table I felt that $0.25 and $0.50 blinds were a bit steep. The thing that really has my goat though is we are now switching from tri-weekly to bi-weekly so we will be playing twice a month and I really want to play the game the right way especially since out of every pot we take $0.75 and put it in a Kitty that has amassed about $200 to date. Eventually we are going to take that money and get plane tickets to Vegas for a three day trip and I am pretty sure out there that they are going to use blinds in their Hold-em games. One other point about Vegas and Hold-em - I have never been to Vegas and two of the guys that have said that you could not just go to Vegas and play Hold-em anywhere. The only way to play was to get in a Tournament. Is that true? Are their no places to play Texas Hold-em in Vegas? I just find that very hard to believe. So anyway - here are my questions about this situation: How do I convince these guys to start using blinds without letting them know I have been studying the game? (Devious, I know, but these guys have handed me my ass for the last 4 months and last night was the first time I won anything) If they do not want to use blinds what kind of strategy do I use? Everyone was staying in for the flop for a $0.25 but everyone started folding as soon as I bet $0.50 pre flop….. Also, how to you approach poker etiquette when you have a couple guys always betting out of turn and folding out of turn? This is supposed to be a "fun poker club" and maybe I am taking things a little to seriously but it did mess with the game last night when they were doing this. ie:, raising out of turn thus causing others to fold. Folding out of turn thus causing others to raise, etc… Any advice would be appreciated it! Thanks, Dave | ||
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| Re: Help! - Proper Poker Play & Etiquette (kind of long), Peter Dimas, 23. Jul 2003 07:35 | ||
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| I don't know what to tell them other than it's the correct way to play, and that way you have to pay to see the flop. Consider using a single .25 blind. | ||
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| Re: Help! - Proper Poker Play & Etiquette (kind of long), shorn, 23. Jul 2003 08:11 | ||
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| Tell them to watch the WSOP or WPT and then point out that the pro's use blinds, so "we should too". As for how to play if they don't want to, that is a tougher question because when it comes down to it, poker is really a struggle for the ante or blinds in each pot. If you think about it, if you steal the blinds one hand an hour in a ring game, that should be roughly 70-90% of a good players profit in the game. If they won't play with blinds, then maybe suggest some sort of ante structure for each hand. That would likely be accepted as most home players know 7-stud, and it would also give you something to fight for with your bets/raises. The comment about no hold'em in vegas is complete BS. Here are the casinos that I know of that have a poker room: Mirage, Bellagio, Orelans, Venetian, Mandalay Bay, Luxor. So, you have plenty to choose from when you go. Hope this helps. | ||
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| Re: Help! - Proper Poker Play & Etiquette (kind of long), jdavidk, 23. Jul 2003 08:21 | ||
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| yes it does help. And thank you for the responses..... | ||
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| Re: Help! - Proper Poker Play & Etiquette (kind of long), Frank Grimes, 23. Jul 2003 09:13 | ||
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| FYI--I believe the Venetian shut down its poker room. Correct me if I'm wrong. All of these do also have regular tournaments if you are interested. I recommend checking out their websites. | ||
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| Re: Help! - Proper Poker Play & Etiquette (kind of long), stdioh, 23. Jul 2003 11:02 | ||
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| Just play with a single blind. If they don't want to play with any blinds at all then just play uber tight. Play only AA and KK and fold everything else. | ||
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| Re: Help! - Proper Poker Play & Etiquette (kind of long), TKarrde, 23. Jul 2003 12:01 | ||
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| Play only AA and KK?? Come on Duke. Give some better advice than that. He won't even be playing 1 in every 100 hands. At least let the guy have a little fun. With only a few players (5 total) you should lower your starting cards. Now if they are all staying in too long, up those hands that are suited connectors. If he is playing with an ante, playing extra tight will only hurt him. Especially if they figure him out and fold everytime he raises. Play more straights and flushes. If you don't have an open ended straight or a 4-flush with the Ace or King on the flop then fold away. I know I am very "amatuer" but give him something better than AA and KK. TKarrde "The next best thing to playing and winning, is playing and losing." | ||
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| Re: Help! - Proper Poker Play & Etiquette (kind of long), stdioh, 23. Jul 2003 14:03 | ||
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| The mathematically correct move, when there are no blinds at all, is to play only AA. There is nothing to steal so why would you play another hand? I was trying to let him have a little fun by suggesting he play KK once in a while :) | ||
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| Re: Help! - Proper Poker Play & Etiquette (kind of long), TKarrde, 23. Jul 2003 14:17 | ||
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| Ok, if there is no blinds then there is either A) an ante or B) no ante. (Did he ever specifify if they played with an ante?) Now, either way, playing only AA is a VERY bad move! Anyone care to take a shot at it? TKarrde "The next best thing to playing and winning, is playing and losing." | ||
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| Re: Help! - Proper Poker Play & Etiquette (kind of long), MozMan, 23. Jul 2003 14:42 | ||
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| Hey Steve- I agree with stdioh here. The only way you can maintain an edge with no action is to stick to AA. It's a very boring way to play, but throw in anything else under those circumstances, and you're throwing money away. There's a reason why the game has antis and blinds. They are a required part of the game and it should not be played without them. This is the result. -Moz "May your chips never fall from a cow." | ||
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| Re: Help! - Proper Poker Play & Etiquette (kind of long), TKarrde, 23. Jul 2003 19:56 | ||
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| Ok.. what am I missing? If there are no blinds or antes then everyone sees the pot? If everyone sees the pot then your AA is about what % to win with 5 players? I'm thinking it is less than 50% but I don't have the info in front of me. So, in essence, every time you do play you are an underdog. That is -EV! What am I missing? The only thing that could be is if you bet pre-flop and drive players out. But you don't want to drive ALL the players out. Or you don't make ANY money. But assuming you fold 50 hands in a row. When you do bet one, I'm guessing they all fold. Now if they were playing with an ante. Well that is obvious. You will lose more in antes than you will win with AA. What am I missing? TKarrde "The next best thing to playing and winning, is playing and losing." | ||
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| Re: Help! - Proper Poker Play & Etiquette (kind of long), stdioh, 24. Jul 2003 13:40 | ||
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| Assume that there are 5 genius poker playing robots around the table. All of them would bet AA and fold everything else. The game would truely be 0-sum. If there is no money to take then there is no reason to play in the hand. Could you make money? Yes. But only if your opponents are dumb enough to play inferior hands. Then perhaps you could play less bad than average hands and beat them and make some money. The point is that without blinds or antes, it isn't poker. | ||
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| Re: Help! - Proper Poker Play & Etiquette (kind of long), MozMan, 23. Jul 2003 12:40 | ||
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| I'm curious, how do they play other games? In other words, if you are playing a stud game, is there any anti? If they are used to playing with an anit, maybe you can suggest that as an alternative... If not, I think you gotta find some way to get these guys to go with the blinds. You will never see any action out of them if you don't start with live money in the pot. -Moz "May your chips never fall from a cow." | ||
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| Re: Help! - Proper Poker Play & Etiquette (kind of long), wolvish, 23. Jul 2003 21:07 | ||
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| Here's how I got my home game to start using blinds. Say you're playing with 6 people, each throwing in a .25 ante every hand. That means each person throws in 1.50 every round even if their cards are bad. However, using a two blind system of SB .25, BB .50, each player only has to throw in .75 a round and can throw away all the bad cards for free for 4 turns. Explain to them how they are wasting their money by always posting the ante and they'll eventually come around. Also, if they dont know the blind system and strategies involved they will probably get raped at the casinos, so you could throw that in too. wolvish | ||
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| Re: Help! - Proper Poker Play & Etiquette (kind of long), 4 POKER, 23. Jul 2003 23:50 | ||
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| Hi David, I think it's great that you're taking such an interest in the game, as well as your buddies. Taking money out of the pot to put in a kitty is a good idea, too. It's like taking a rake only it won't be going to the house, it will be used for you guys to take a trip to Vegas with and I think that's a splended idea! However, when you guys do go to Vegas (or anywhere else), when you do play Texas Hold-Em, you will find that it is played with blinds, small blind and big blind. (as you already know). One of the key parts in playing hold-em is "stealing the blinds", and without it, you would be taking a very important element out of the game. Also....with just that added money in the pot you will have something else to shoot for ie; getting better odds on your less premium hands like J-10, smaller pocket pairs, A-J, and so on. If you didn't play with any blinds, there wouldn't be much of a reason to play any of those hands because the pot, (or lackthereof), might not be laying you enough odds to even bother with those holdings. If you're on the button and everyone has folded to you and you look down and see K-Q, well that's a hand that you may want to throw a raise in with as in "to steal the blind money" and/or create a pot/action if they *do* call you, but there would be no reason for them to call here if they didn't have a really, really good hand because they didn't have anything invested in the first place. Make sense? Meaning: they would have nothing to defend, so why bother calling a raise with a hand like 10-9 or two sixes. That's why it's imperative to play the game with blinds....it's just too much a part of the game not to. But I have a suggestion............... If your buddies don't want to play with low money blinds because they don't wanna mess around with dimes being thrown in the pot.......then why don't you try playing with poker chips instead of using coin. But I would suggest you play 25c-50c as opposed to 10c-25c. It will be easier IMO, and that 25c small blind requirement only comes around once during the coarse of ten hands anyway, so it shouldn't effect the $20 buy in that much. You'll still have plenty of money to play with, *even* by playing 25c-50. But that will be up to you guys. You can purchase some plastic chips for a very low price and if there's three different colors in the box, say red, white, and blue then you can make the white chip have a value of 25c, which can now be used for a small blind bet as well..... and you can make the red chips have a value of 50c, which can be used to post up the big blind, *or* you would still be able to use 2 white chips for the big blind if you wanted to because the value is exactly double the amount (25c-50c) and so are the blinds, and that will make the betting much easier, as well. And the 50c chips can be used for the bigger betting rounds as well. You can make the blue chips have the denomination of $1.00 this way you can use them for when the betting rounds are now doubled (turn and river bets), for when somebody now raises, ie; you bet 50c on the turn (using the red chip), but your friend raises it now to one dollar, using the $1.00 blue chip (if he choses), or putting in 2 red chips, or, putting in 4 white chips. Keep in mind....if you play 25c-50, if someone bets on the small betting rounds (pre-flop and flop betting rounds), the open bet will be 25c, and if you want to raise it, it goes to 50c, and if you chose to raise that bet, it would go to 75c, and so on. The raise is always increased to just the value of whatever the initial bet is posted at. (incraments of 25c *PER* bet and/or raise). So when you get to the bigger betting rounds (which will be double the bet now, and that's the turn and river rounds of betting).....if you make a bet or a call, you would put in 50c, and if you chose to raise it, it would go to $100, and then to $1.50, and then to $2.00. It's the same as the smaller betting rounds when determining how much you'll be able to raise to. (incraments of 50c *PER* bet now, and/or raise). Just remember........ when you have chips in the pot, there's a reason now for people to defend their holdings, and when you add just the few extra chips to the pot by having "posted blinds" to go along with it, *now* the pot has even more chips in it, thus creating more action. And when you use chips opposed to real money (even if it is just coin), people tend to not take it as seriosly, thus again....creating more action and playing more drawing hands and in all essence.....that's what you *want* to achieve when you play poker! Action, action, action, while still allowing some justification for playing lesser holdings as well because of the simple reason that you have chosen to post up blinds as a mandatory rule. So explain to your friends that using blinds is a big part of the game and if you guys do plan on playing in a casino, you should get used to playing the game as it's played there. Still take the kitty money for your trip 'cause that's a great idea, but play the game as its supposed to be played and I think you guys will enjoy it a "heckuvalot 'more.....just try it! And when you do arrive in Vegas, there will be plenty of casinos for you to chose from that spread Texas Hold-Em. The Flamingo, The Orleans, Monte Carlo, The Mirage, and The Stardust are some of the ones that will offer this game at a limit in which you may prefer to play at. Have fun in your games and just note that whatever you decide to go with, as with *all* games....you must have rules.....and stick to them as well. Be consistent and everything will run smoothly. (Oh......and don't forget the snacks)!! Good luck! 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Help! - Proper Poker Play & Etiquette (kind of long), jdavidk, 24. Jul 2003 06:06 | ||
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| Thank you very much 4Poker and everyone else for your very informative posts. I am going to try and pull each of these guys aside seperatly and speak with them about the blinds and the betting rounds. (we were always just betting $.25 - $.50 - $.75 - $1 - instead of making the increments go up after each turn of the cards) The only worry I have is these guys may just be in this for fun and comradire and I seem to have gotten a love for the game and want to "play right". If the truly is the situation then I am not sure what I will do since two of the five guys are my friends and the other two I just know from the game. I really like playing with them and so I may just have ot bite the bullet and play by "their rules" and find another game somewhere (how I dont know) or whatever...... Thanks again to everyone and their great responses. I am going to snag parts of everyones posts and write an email to the guy that formed the group. Take care, Dave | ||
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| Re: Help! - Proper Poker Play & Etiquette (kind of long), Banning, 24. Jul 2003 03:25 | ||
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| I think it is fair to assume that there is a 25 cent ante based on this statement, call me Inspector Banning. "If they do not want to use blinds what kind of strategy do I use? Everyone was staying in for the flop for a $0.25 but everyone started folding as soon as I bet $0.50 pre flop….." Now, if they all folded to you then you just won yourself $1.00 or so depending on how many people are playing. If they are going to be folding to you preflop whenever you raise 50 cents then I would recommend doing more of that. I have been reading poker books as of late and one of the examples was that in 7 card stud there is ante, as such blind stealing is a way higher percentage play. Your 50 cent raise into a 1.00 pot is giving you 2 to 1 odds. Therefore, if you think that your opponents are going to fold around to you more often than 2 to 1 you should be raising that much every round. Also, you should raise even if they only fold to you 1 out of every 3 hands because you still should consider that you are winning some of those. Of course, I wouldn't do it EVERY hand maybe just 2/3 or the hands. My poker is very very similar to yours except that I have created my poker club with my buddies so we play pretty well exactly how a casino does. Often we are playing poker 4handed or 5 handed and it is fun. A few weeks ago I decided to try out playing super aggresively and was raising preflop alot. It taught me alot about poker. You should try it out once, assume you are going to have a losing session kiss your 20 bucks goodbye and do it. It is very informative as it teaches you how opponents react to you when they see you as a loose aggresive player. I did it lost almost all of my cash, then started modifying it and came back to book only a small loss. If I were you I would be trying to steal the ante alot, but just be warned that any time a player decides to stay in he will probably have a better hand than you. When raising and one guy stays in you are basically playing your one hand against the best hand out of the other 4 guys. As such it makes you the -EV. If that starts happening too much then stop raising preflop as much, limp in for awhile and then raise your 50 cents again later with a decent hand. If it gets folded to you again take your antes and be happy. Try to figure out the right amount to be stealing based on your image, if people know you to steal the antes alot you will get called and then punished, so learn to get away from those hands. Don't forget about position too! Maybe only try ante stealing when you are the dealer because then it gives you another wicked shot at a resteal on the flop if it gets checked to you. This post is a bit all over the place because I am trying to convey alot of things that I have been thinking about and trying out lately with my boys. To summarize, you need to be ante stealing more, don't cry when the fold to you preflop, take advantage of it. Only you can figure out exactly how much is optimal for ante stealing and I hope you enjoy. | ||
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| Re: Help! - Proper Poker Play & Etiquette (kind of long), Spencer, 25. Jul 2003 00:14 | ||
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| I fully understand where you are coing from. i played many years of low limit home games for the comraderie and so forth. My friends dont know much about poker except basic rules. Once i got more involved and interested so did they. we usually play 7 stud and hold em or 5 draw but until recently we never played blinds. We anted in stud and other games but blinds got complex...suddenly they came around and wanted to add blinds. i found as my interest and knowledge grew so did thiers. we went from playing crap games...wilds, crazy combos etc to straight poker games and we go by rules. I guess i have set standard but with patience and a bit of slow steady knowledge sharing I got them involved too. good luck | ||
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