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ONLINE POKER IS RIGGED!!!! (and other stories), Wren, 21. Jul 2003 13:18
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I just had the most craptastical weekend of online poker. Played a total of about 15 hours (no, I don't have a life :O) of mostly $.5-1 limit HE on UB. Result: Down $15. I know - doesn't sound TOO terrible, but goddamn that was a frustrating experience! First of all, my win rate was very low - according to the new UB stat tool, it was 5% for both of my two 5-hour fullhanded sessions. But that alone isn't terrible - I'd usually be able to pull a (small) win on a rate like that. But, my God, the bad beats! Don't worry - I won't get into details. Ohhhhh...dammit, I can't resist! Just one small example. Shorthanded game. In the span of about a half hour, QQ, AA and QQ lose to the SAME guy's 34, 34 and 9T, when he makes a straight, trips, and two-pair, respectively. And in each case, we took the flop either heads up or 3-handed. In the fullhanded games, I got a decent number of good starting cards - lots of AQ, AJ and KQ-type hands, but as we all know, these hands don't fare well against a large crowd. So, needless to say, very very few of these worked out. Furthermore, I got very few multi-way starting cards, and even fewer made hands. About 3 out of the 12-13 big pocket pairs ended up winning. Etc, etc. But enough whining. :O) The main point of this post was to share with y'all some of the things I struggle with playing online, and some of the differences I've noticed between online & B&M play.

One thing I've been having some trouble with online is determining when I'm beat. As a result I probably wasted a lot of bets this weekend calling people on the river. As far as I could see it, this was due to two reasons: (1) I didn't have the benefit of tells like I do at the B&M and (2) It is *very* hard to give these players respect. I try taking notes on the players, but they continue to do surprising things which cause me to adjust my notes. For example, one player will be in with a big ace, and then check an A-high flop. Ok, so I write down "passive??" in the notes section. Then the same player later on raises a river bet holding just middle pair. Hmm. I think a lot of these players are just SO bad that their play simply cannot be analyzed. Due to this, a lot of decisions, IMO, come down to pure mathematics. Say I'm sitting on a set, betting it the whole way against 3 or 4 opponents, and then a 3rd flush card comes on the river and then a fairly fishy player bets ahead of me. It is quite likely that the player's on a flush, but the pot's usually laying me something like 11-1 odds at this point, so I have to be VERY sure that I'm no longer good in order to justify a fold. Problem is, there are two Golden Rules of UB to contend with: (1) If there is a 2-flush on the flop, at least one player will have the flush draw (2) All flush draws get there. Ok, so I'm being mildly facetious here, but dammit, it sure seems that way!

Another thing I've been noticing is that online poker players are much more aggressive, as whole, than B&M players. And online players LOVE to checkraise. They LOVE LOVE LOVE it. And they do it too much, in all the wrong places. They'll make st00pid plays like check/calling down with A high on a board that eventually reads JJQTK, and then they'll try to checkraise the river!! Dumb dumb dumb. If I don't have at least broadway here, I'm not betting for you, fool. I think the difference is due primarily to demographics. In the B&M, at least at the lower limits, a good percentage of the players are retirees, and these players are often quite passive. Some of them even think it's immoral to checkraise! By contrast, the average online player is a lot younger. I'm willing to bet that 10-15% of 'em are underage (judging by the unintelligent, immature banter that frequently appears in the chat). They love to be clever, get in those checkraises, bluff out their opponents. Furthermore, you'll often find online players who are quite drunk, blowing off steam or just having fun, and these tend to be on the maniacal side as well. As a whole, I find the need to "play sheriff" more often online than I do at the B&M, because of the lack of tangible information on the other players.

Alright, well that's enough rambling for one post. I wish you all good luck at the online tables, 'cause Goddamn, it's a jungle out there :O)
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Re: ONLINE POKER IS RIGGED!!!! (and other stories), Slate, 21. Jul 2003 13:26
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I can sympathize with you Wren. I have felt that way many times.

I think online its easier for people to bet/check-raise and just go buck wild since your money is a number and not a physical stack in front of you. Its also easy to push a button and never see your opponents face.

I still like on-line poker but you have to take it with a grain of salt :-)

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Re: ONLINE POKER IS RIGGED!!!! (and other stories), 4 POKER, 21. Jul 2003 13:53
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It's a three-ring circus alot of the times and it doesn't even come close to playing like "real poker" in the B&M's.....not IMO anyway. I still play it, and enjoy it....but I have noticed many times when I was holding A-Q for example, my opponent would re-raise me coming in with pocket threes....we take the hand heads up and now the flop comes up A-Q-3. Pretty special huh? It happens over and over and over, and in all my years of playing in the casino, I have never come across of getting such a "cold deck" of cards like I do when I play on-line. That's why I play much lower limits on-line 'cause I don't think I could handle the swings of anything really substantial. I love the fishies, but that will mean taking some serious horrendous beats, too!
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Re: ONLINE POKER IS RIGGED!!!! (and other stories), Guru, 21. Jul 2003 13:44
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Wren,

If it helps any, I had the same weekend. I actually decided to stop for a couple days because it was getting so bad. I just couldn't believe how many times I got cracked by some fool with 10-4offsuit or 3-9offsuit. It becomes really hard to read the board possibilities because you're looking at the stupid board thinking, "Well, if he has 10-6, he has me, but who starts with 10-6?" Blam! His pot!

Guru
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Re: ONLINE POKER IS RIGGED!!!! (and other stories), Wren, 21. Jul 2003 14:01
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That's just it. At these online low-limit tables, you cannot make logical deductions on what your opponent is holding based on his/her actions and the texture of the board. If you're holding AA and the board comes T63 rainbow, you better believe that T3o is out there!!

on 21. Jul 2003 13:44 Guru wrote:
> Wren,
>
> If it helps any, I had the same weekend. I actually decided to stop for a
> couple days because it was getting so bad. I just couldn't believe how many times I
> got cracked by some fool with 10-4offsuit or 3-9offsuit. It becomes really hard to
> read the board possibilities because you're looking at the stupid board thinking,
> "Well, if he has 10-6, he has me, but who starts with 10-6?" Blam! His pot!
>
> Guru
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Re: ONLINE POKER IS RIGGED!!!! (and other stories), Guru, 21. Jul 2003 15:10
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That crap was happening to me that one sesson we were playing togeher. I remeber you saying that neither of us was doing so well. That's what was killing me.
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Re: ONLINE POKER IS RIGGED!!!! (and other stories), Wren, 21. Jul 2003 15:15
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I don't think I won a single hand while you were sitting there with me.
Maybe you're just bad luck...lol j/k :P Next time we sit down together, we're gonna clean up!!

on 21. Jul 2003 15:10 Guru wrote:
> That crap was happening to me that one sesson we were playing togeher. I remeber you saying
> that neither of us was doing so well. That's what was killing me.
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Re: ONLINE POKER IS RIGGED!!!! (and other stories), Risky Business, 21. Jul 2003 13:49
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I'm trying to extract which of these comments pertained to my play during my brief sit-in your session on Sunday.

I guess it didn't get any better once I left.



on 21. Jul 2003 13:18 Wren wrote:
> I just had the most craptastical weekend of online poker. Played a total of
> about 15 hours (no, I don't have a life :O) of mostly $.5-1 limit HE on UB.
> Result: Down $15. I know - doesn't sound TOO terrible, but goddamn that was a
> frustrating experience! First of all, my win rate was very low - according to
> the new UB stat tool, it was 5% for both of my two 5-hour fullhanded sessions.
> But that alone isn't terrible - I'd usually be able to pull a (small) win on a
> rate like that. But, my God, the bad beats! Don't worry - I won't get into
> details. Ohhhhh...dammit, I can't resist! Just one small example. Shorthanded
> game. In the span of about a half hour, QQ, AA and QQ lose to the SAME guy's 34,
> 34 and 9T, when he makes a straight, trips, and two-pair, respectively. And in
> each case, we took the flop either heads up or 3-handed. In the fullhanded
> games, I got a decent number of good starting cards - lots of AQ, AJ and KQ-type
> hands, but as we all know, these hands don't fare well against a large crowd.
> So, needless to say, very very few of these worked out. Furthermore, I got very
> few multi-way starting cards, and even fewer made hands. About 3 out of the
> 12-13 big pocket pairs ended up winning. Etc, etc. But enough whining. :O) The
> main point of this post was to share with y'all some of the things I struggle
> with playing online, and some of the differences I've noticed between online &
> B&M play.
>
> One thing I've been having some trouble with online is determining when I'm
> beat. As a result I probably wasted a lot of bets this weekend calling people on
> the river. As far as I could see it, this was due to two reasons: (1) I didn't
> have the benefit of tells like I do at the B&M and (2) It is *very* hard to give
> these players respect. I try taking notes on the players, but they continue to
> do surprising things which cause me to adjust my notes. For example, one player
> will be in with a big ace, and then check an A-high flop. Ok, so I write down
> "passive??" in the notes section. Then the same player later on raises a river
> bet holding just middle pair. Hmm. I think a lot of these players are just SO
> bad that their play simply cannot be analyzed. Due to this, a lot of decisions,
> IMO, come down to pure mathematics. Say I'm sitting on a set, betting it the
> whole way against 3 or 4 opponents, and then a 3rd flush card comes on the river
> and then a fairly fishy player bets ahead of me. It is quite likely that the
> player's on a flush, but the pot's usually laying me something like 11-1 odds at
> this point, so I have to be VERY sure that I'm no longer good in order to
> justify a fold. Problem is, there are two Golden Rules of UB to contend with:
> (1) If there is a 2-flush on the flop, at least one player will have the flush
> draw (2) All flush draws get there. Ok, so I'm being mildly facetious here, but
> dammit, it sure seems that way!
>
> Another thing I've been noticing is that online poker players are much more
> aggressive, as whole, than B&M players. And online players LOVE to checkraise.
> They LOVE LOVE LOVE it. And they do it too much, in all the wrong places.
> They'll make st00pid plays like check/calling down with A high on a board that
> eventually reads JJQTK, and then they'll try to checkraise the river!! Dumb dumb
> dumb. If I don't have at least broadway here, I'm not betting for you, fool. I
> think the difference is due primarily to demographics. In the B&M, at least at
> the lower limits, a good percentage of the players are retirees, and these
> players are often quite passive. Some of them even think it's immoral to
> checkraise! By contrast, the average online player is a lot younger. I'm willing
> to bet that 10-15% of 'em are underage (judging by the unintelligent, immature
> banter that frequently appears in the chat). They love to be clever, get in
> those checkraises, bluff out their opponents. Furthermore, you'll often find
> online players who are quite drunk, blowing off steam or just having fun, and
> these tend to be on the maniacal side as well. As a whole, I find the need to
> "play sheriff" more often online than I do at the B&M, because of the lack of
> tangible information on the other players.
>
> Alright, well that's enough rambling for one post. I wish you all good luck at
> the online tables, 'cause Goddamn, it's a jungle out there :O)
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Re: ONLINE POKER IS RIGGED!!!! (and other stories), Wren, 21. Jul 2003 13:59
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Nah, you were one of the few who was actually playing a solid game. BTW...apologies for being such a whiny poo-head. I'm not usually an ass like that at the table.

And nope - it didn't get any better :) But hey: Tomorrow Is Another Day!

on 21. Jul 2003 13:49 Risky Business wrote:
> I'm trying to extract which of these comments pertained to my play during my brief
> sit-in your session on Sunday.
>
> I guess it didn't get any better once I left.
>
>
>
> on 21. Jul 2003 13:18 Wren wrote:
> > I just had the most craptastical weekend of online poker. Played a total of
> > about 15 hours (no, I don't have a life :O) of mostly $.5-1 limit HE on UB.
> > Result: Down $15. I know - doesn't sound TOO terrible, but goddamn that was a
> > frustrating experience! First of all, my win rate was very low - according to
> > the new UB stat tool, it was 5% for both of my two 5-hour fullhanded sessions.
> > But that alone isn't terrible - I'd usually be able to pull a (small) win on a
> > rate like that. But, my God, the bad beats! Don't worry - I won't get into
> > details. Ohhhhh...dammit, I can't resist! Just one small example. Shorthanded
> > game. In the span of about a half hour, QQ, AA and QQ lose to the SAME guy's 34,
>
> > 34 and 9T, when he makes a straight, trips, and two-pair, respectively. And in
> > each case, we took the flop either heads up or 3-handed. In the fullhanded
> > games, I got a decent number of good starting cards - lots of AQ, AJ and KQ-type
>
> > hands, but as we all know, these hands don't fare well against a large crowd.
> > So, needless to say, very very few of these worked out. Furthermore, I got very
> > few multi-way starting cards, and even fewer made hands. About 3 out of the
> > 12-13 big pocket pairs ended up winning. Etc, etc. But enough whining. :O) The
> > main point of this post was to share with y'all some of the things I struggle
> > with playing online, and some of the differences I've noticed between online &
> > B&M play.
> >
> > One thing I've been having some trouble with online is determining when I'm
> > beat. As a result I probably wasted a lot of bets this weekend calling people on
>
> > the river. As far as I could see it, this was due to two reasons: (1) I didn't
> > have the benefit of tells like I do at the B&M and (2) It is *very* hard to give
>
> > these players respect. I try taking notes on the players, but they continue to
> > do surprising things which cause me to adjust my notes. For example, one player
> > will be in with a big ace, and then check an A-high flop. Ok, so I write down
> > "passive??" in the notes section. Then the same player later on raises a river
> > bet holding just middle pair. Hmm. I think a lot of these players are just SO
> > bad that their play simply cannot be analyzed. Due to this, a lot of decisions,
> > IMO, come down to pure mathematics. Say I'm sitting on a set, betting it the
> > whole way against 3 or 4 opponents, and then a 3rd flush card comes on the river
>
> > and then a fairly fishy player bets ahead of me. It is quite likely that the
> > player's on a flush, but the pot's usually laying me something like 11-1 odds at
>
> > this point, so I have to be VERY sure that I'm no longer good in order to
> > justify a fold. Problem is, there are two Golden Rules of UB to contend with:
> > (1) If there is a 2-flush on the flop, at least one player will have the flush
> > draw (2) All flush draws get there. Ok, so I'm being mildly facetious here, but
> > dammit, it sure seems that way!
> >
> > Another thing I've been noticing is that online poker players are much more
> > aggressive, as whole, than B&M players. And online players LOVE to checkraise.
> > They LOVE LOVE LOVE it. And they do it too much, in all the wrong places.
> > They'll make st00pid plays like check/calling down with A high on a board that
> > eventually reads JJQTK, and then they'll try to checkraise the river!! Dumb dumb
>
> > dumb. If I don't have at least broadway here, I'm not betting for you, fool. I
> > think the difference is due primarily to demographics. In the B&M, at least at
> > the lower limits, a good percentage of the players are retirees, and these
> > players are often quite passive. Some of them even think it's immoral to
> > checkraise! By contrast, the average online player is a lot younger. I'm willing
>
> > to bet that 10-15% of 'em are underage (judging by the unintelligent, immature
> > banter that frequently appears in the chat). They love to be clever, get in
> > those checkraises, bluff out their opponents. Furthermore, you'll often find
> > online players who are quite drunk, blowing off steam or just having fun, and
> > these tend to be on the maniacal side as well. As a whole, I find the need to
> > "play sheriff" more often online than I do at the B&M, because of the lack of
> > tangible information on the other players.
> >
> > Alright, well that's enough rambling for one post. I wish you all good luck at
> > the online tables, 'cause Goddamn, it's a jungle out there :O)
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Re: ONLINE POKER IS RIGGED!!!! (and other stories), SKinner, 22. Jul 2003 08:16
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whiny poo-head....

that's great.
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Re: ONLINE POKER IS RIGGED!!!! (and other stories), Giocatore, 21. Jul 2003 14:50
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Wren,

As an avid online poker player I could not agree more with your assertion that many online players, especially the ones at the lower limits, are young and even underage. I find it hysterical when some cyber punk, most likely a 16-year old high school student too young for a driver's license and with nothing better to do during the summer, threatens someone over a poker game and types something to the likes of "you wouldn't want to meet me in person" in the chat area. I may be a bit naive here, but I just can't see your average mature person, let's say over 25, typing some of these ridiculous things that you see pop up in the chat box from time to time. I also agree with 4 POKER when he said something to the likes of online poker being like a roller coaster. The fact that the games are so fast, in my opinion, adds to the impatience of someone on tilt, for he knows he's only seconds away from the next hand and the possibility to regain some of his losses. It is for this reason, I think, that you often see someone playing 10-3o to the river vs. your AK and a board of A-10-9-6-3. One thing which happens to me alot is I'll either be in a session where all my strong hands hold up, like AA, KK or QQ, or I'll be in one where I get sucked out on every time. For some odd reason I rarely have "half and halfs" with respect to these hands. Thus, it is very much true that online poker is like an emotional roller coaster. Good post and good luck in your games.

Giocatore
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Re: ONLINE POKER IS RIGGED!!!! (and other stories), Wren, 21. Jul 2003 15:24
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Yeah, I see a lot of statements like "wanna go heads up buddy? ill clean you out!" and "HAHAHA!!! EAT EAT EAT" peppered across the chat. You can bet these young whippersnappers wouldn't be so brazen if they weren't hiding behind their monitors!

Your second point rings true as well. I think the speed of the game definitely adds to the tilt factor. Since more hands are dealt per hour, one must cope with more bad beats/hr as well. Bad beats, IMO, must be fully dealt with mentally and emotionally before one can move on and continue to play good poker. But when the beats are coming fast & furious like they do online (especially when playing more than one table), there isn't enough time to come to terms with each one and put it behind you. So the frustration & anger continues to build. A lot of players adopt a death wish at this point, and just blow the rest of their money away on losing hands. I just fume interally, and continue to play more-or-less solidly. Though I know I'm not playing my *best* game when I'm feeling emotional. Probably a good idea to take a short break every now and then.

Anyhoo...tx for the kind words, and good luck yourself!

on 21. Jul 2003 14:50 Giocatore wrote:
> Wren,
>
> As an avid online poker player I could not agree more with your assertion that many
> online players, especially the ones at the lower limits, are young and even underage.
> I find it hysterical when some cyber punk, most likely a 16-year old high school
> student too young for a driver's license and with nothing better to do during the
> summer, threatens someone over a poker game and types something to the likes of "you
> wouldn't want to meet me in person" in the chat area. I may be a bit naive here, but
> I just can't see your average mature person, let's say over 25, typing some of these
> ridiculous things that you see pop up in the chat box from time to time. I also
> agree with 4 POKER when he said something to the likes of online poker being like a
> roller coaster. The fact that the games are so fast, in my opinion, adds to the
> impatience of someone on tilt, for he knows he's only seconds away from the next hand
> and the possibility to regain some of his losses. It is for this reason, I think,
> that you often see someone playing 10-3o to the river vs. your AK and a board of
> A-10-9-6-3. One thing which happens to me alot is I'll either be in a session where
> all my strong hands hold up, like AA, KK or QQ, or I'll be in one where I get sucked
> out on every time. For some odd reason I rarely have "half and halfs" with respect
> to these hands. Thus, it is very much true that online poker is like an emotional
> roller coaster. Good post and good luck in your games.
>
> Giocatore
>
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Re: ONLINE POKER IS RIGGED!!!! (and other stories), Giocatore, 21. Jul 2003 15:38
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Oh yeah . . . . . You reminded me of a good one . . . . .

"You wanna go heads up right now buddy?"

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

You gotta love online poker . . . . .
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Re: ONLINE POKER IS RIGGED!!!! (and other stories), 4 POKER, 21. Jul 2003 15:43
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I can't tell you how many times I have seen players type that in....good one Gio! And it's usually at the real low limits too when they have about $23 in front of them!
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Re: ONLINE POKER IS RIGGED!!!! (and other stories), Bond18, 21. Jul 2003 15:56
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I've found though that if you respectfully challenge most LL players to a heads up game and get them to play, they have NO idea what their doing, and its fairly easy money. Everytime some 16 year old jerk (who am i to talk? im 18) shoots his mouth off about playing heads up, i say sure lets play, you woudln't beleive how incapable most players are when it comes to heads up, i strongly recommend accepting their illogical challenges.
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Re: ONLINE POKER IS RIGGED!!!! (and other stories), 4 POKER, 21. Jul 2003 16:04
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on 21. Jul 2003 15:56 Bond18 wrote:
> I've found though that if you respectfully challenge most LL players to a heads up game and get them to
> play, they have NO idea what their doing, and its fairly easy money. Everytime some 16 year old jerk (who
> am i to talk? im 18) shoots his mouth off about playing heads up, i say sure lets play, you woudln't
> beleive how incapable most players are when it comes to heads up, i strongly recommend accepting their
> illogical challenges.


I have no shame in admtting that I SUCK at heads up poker....so I tend to just let them babble whenever they want.....as long as they keep playing in my game!
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Re: ONLINE POKER IS RIGGED!!!! (and other stories), Andrew Wells, 21. Jul 2003 17:24
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They usually don't show up for the one on one play and you just lose your seat when this happens. Otherwise expect hyperaggressive play which checking and calling will frustrate.
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Re: ONLINE POKER IS RIGGED!!!! (and other stories), DJpoker, 21. Jul 2003 15:53
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After having that kind of weekend, do you think there is any truth to the hundreds of rumors I hear that although online poker isn't necessarily rigged, the card randomization does induce more betting.

I am just using your example of AA vs 10-3o. It does appear that the crap hand seems to catch more often online than at the B&M. I don't think it is rigged in the sense that people suggest, but I do honestly wonder about the software and the ability to randomize hands that encourage betting. Stdioh may be able to explain. Good luck Wren. After all, you are the UPF chapion :) DJpoker
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Re: ONLINE POKER IS RIGGED!!!! (and other stories), Wren, 21. Jul 2003 18:22
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If anything, cards dealt online are MORE randomized than cards dealt in a B&M. The riffle-cut-riffle-riffle that most casinos use to shuffle makes things *sufficiently* randomized, but not truly random. Cards dealt online are, for all intents and purposes, random. An internet cardroom like UB would have very little to gain, but a lot to lose by influencing the way cards are dealt. What happens online when we get beat after beat after beat inflicted upon us is simply normal statistical fluctuation, made more likely by implicit collusion (having soooo many people staying in, all hoping to catch their miracle cards).

I know from experience that online poker is very beatable - I made over $5000 last year from an initial $10 playing micro and low limit games. There were periods during which I wanted to tear my hair out, but other periods during which I couldn't seem to do any wrong; both will happen if you play a lot of poker, and that's what makes it both a very exciting, and very infuriating game!!

on 21. Jul 2003 15:53 DJpoker wrote:
> After having that kind of weekend, do you think there is any truth to the hundreds of rumors I
> hear that although online poker isn't necessarily rigged, the card randomization does induce
> more betting.
>
> I am just using your example of AA vs 10-3o. It does appear that the crap hand seems to catch
> more often online than at the B&M. I don't think it is rigged in the sense that people
> suggest, but I do honestly wonder about the software and the ability to randomize hands that
> encourage betting. Stdioh may be able to explain. Good luck Wren. After all, you are the UPF
> chapion :) DJpoker
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Re: ONLINE POKER IS RIGGED!!!! (and other stories), guinessman, 22. Jul 2003 07:27
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The reason crap like 10-3 catches more online is simple.....it is played more online. It's much easier for someone to log in than it is to drive to a casino so the level of play is usually much better there....
Guinessman
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Re: ONLINE POKER IS RIGGED!!!! (and other stories), spawgan, 21. Jul 2003 22:26
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I can feel you pain. Playing in a UB tourney, played for about 2 hours, getting very close to the money. End up all in with AA against 55 only to see the board come out 8-7-4-4-6 to get beat by the str8. That is after a sit n go where again I went all in with AA (Ac Ad) against 33 (3s 3d) only to see 4 spades come out by the turn to loose to the flush.
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Re: ONLINE POKER IS RIGGED!!!! (and other stories), mroban, 22. Jul 2003 14:12
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Wren:

You summed up my feelings for the past year playing online quite clearly. Fortunately, I have had much more success than failure, but I have had a few frustrating nights (that put major dents in my bankroll) for all the reasons you have articulated. Overall though, My initial $50 at Poker Room has turned into over $1,000, now spread out at UB, Party Poker and Poker Room (I have taken a few hundred in profit too).

Anyway, I think you are totally right. My biggest problem is not giving any respect whatsoever to these players, knowing they play totally random hands.

A few comments: First, I have found that if a two flush appears on board, and then a three flush on the turn, you see a lot of players who check and call on the flop, now bet out. Most of the time, they have picked up a four-flush on the turn and hold something like K-J or A-9 with the case A or K. This guy is not folding if you re-raise, but he will fold the river if his card doesn't come. Provided the flush doesn't hit, I will always bet this guy for value on the river if he checks to me, or will bet into him if he has position.

In general, I get into the most trouble when I think I have the best hand, raise and keep getting called. This usually indicates a draw, but you never know. I get into the most trouble with hands like QQ or AK (suited or not). I will raise preflop and will get called by 3 players (not raised). The flop will come 10-7-5. I bet out and get one or 2 callers. The heck do these guys have? If they had a big overpair, they would reraise. Usually they have K-10, Q-10 or J-10 , A-7, k-7, Q-7 or 8-9 (or even 8-6) and are drawing to the straight or playing top or middle pair. I can't tell you how many times I have just bet AK to the end without picking up an A or a K and losing to a middle or even a low pair (like they have 33 which would give them 4th or 5th best pair, but still good enough to beat me).

Or worse, I refuse to believe that they hit their set or made their hand again even when they bet out, and I will either stubbornly re-raise (forgetting for a moment that there is no earthly chance they will call) or just call on the river. I would say 60% of my losses fall under one of the above categories.

Anyway Wren, I feel you big time.
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