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Server Time: 11/22/2008 12:45:39 AM PACIFIC |
 Tell me I'm not crazy, McMonkey, 21. Jul 2003 07:04 | ||
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| My gut feeling is that I just had some really bad luck yesterday, but I wanted to make sure that it wasn't bad play. I was in a 6 person NL SnG it's fairly early on (10-20) blinds and at least 3 of the 5 other players are pretty much calling everything. I'm still right around the 1000 starting chips Hand #1: I have KQo and am in LP. There are 2 limpers ahead of me. I make a small raise and the BB and the 2 limpers call. Flop comes K - Q - x rainbow. All 3 players check to me. I've got the nuts but realize I'm vulnerable so I make a fairly sizeable bet (200 or so). All 3 call. Turn comes x of diamonds. Now there are 2 diamonds and no straight possibility. Again it's checked to me, I bet around 300 to make any draws pay. Again all 3 players call. River is another diamond. It's checked all the way around..not wanting to commit too much more money so early on (and since there is now a flush draw) I check. 1 player had rags, but the other 2 had diamonds (7-5d and 10-6d). Hand #2: Very next hand...now I'm down to 500 chips. I'm on the button. I'm dealt A-A. 3 limpers around to me, I raise, BB re-raises, I go all-in. Everyone folds except the BB. The cards are flipped and he's got 7-7. I figure I've won. Flop: no A no 7, I'm safe. Turn, still safe. River: a 7 and I'm the first one knocked out. My gut says that I just got 2 pretty bad beats and should move on, but I also think about being more conservative in the beginning of a tournament. Should I have backed off a little on the first hand? Should I have played the second hand differently? Thanks for the help guys. | ||
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| Re: Tell me I'm not crazy, 4 POKER, 21. Jul 2003 08:01 | ||
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| Hand #1: Once there were already 2 limpers, I wouldn't have raised with K-Q. If someone comes over the top of you, you'd have to lay it down now. I would have limped in and waited to see the flop first. The hand can wind up being a real trap hand and although you flopped top two, I still wouldn't make a raise with it pre-flop. If you had a really big stack and were trying to put a small stack all-in, maybe...but not early on. Pre-flop, K-Q really isn't that much of a hand, especially in N/L. Hand#2: The problem I see with pushing all-in with A-A is, if the two of you were fairly equal in chips, once you raise pre-flop and he comes over the top, I would have just called his raise. Reason being....you know that he has a strong hand BUT, if you push all-in and he is now all-in....the only thing that can happen to you is that he gets to see the entire board for free without having to make the decision on folding or making a big bet that could be a wrong bet on his part. If you played your hand a little bit more deceptively after he raised you back, you could have now allowed him to bet the flop thinking that he held the best hand and/or, it allows him to make a move on you as well. Give him the oportunity to A), make a mistake, and B), don't allow him to get to the river without having to think about it anymore. Even though you were the favorite pre-flop, I think you would have had better results if you gave yourself a chance to play back at him after the flop came out. Question: if you hadn't chose to push all-in pre-flop with A-A, would you have called any bet he now made on the flop? If the answer is yes, you should have waited for the flop so NOW you could've pushed all-in and MAKE him decide if he still wants to commit with 7-7. Or, you could've been the aggressor bettor yourself, as that as well will now leave him with an important decision as to whether or not he wants to call. Once you're both all-in, he's basically getting to see the whole board and this does leave your own holding at risk now.....even A-A. You're really not protecting your hand as much as you may think when you push all-in pre-flop, but you can allow yourself to protect it *more* if you push all-in on the flop....for the simple reason of what happened to you. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Tell me I'm not crazy, SKinner, 21. Jul 2003 08:31 | ||
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| 4POKER, Wow. I had never thought of it that way. That single post is going to do a lot for my game, I think. Better to go all-in on the flop, rather than pre-flop, because your opponent might then fold. Thanks a lot! –SKinner | ||
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| Re: Tell me I'm not crazy, stdioh, 21. Jul 2003 09:45 | ||
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| No! With AA in that situation you really want to get all the money in preflop. If it is showdown poker then he is a giant dog to you. There is never a reason to not get all the money you can in preflop with AA. Why let him catch nothing and fold or catch something that beats you and *then* get your money? | ||
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| Re: Tell me I'm not crazy, Mark, 21. Jul 2003 08:05 | ||
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| In hand # 1, i would bet the pot on the flop. When the 2nd flush card came on the turn, i would again bet at least the pot. This would destroy any odds for the others to draw. Making a small bet (1/2 the pot) is asking to get called becasue it looks weak on the turn. Also, although the turn pot odds are not there for your opponents to call, they are pretty close and some opponents might think that the implied odds are there. mark | ||
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| Re: Tell me I'm not crazy, McMonkey, 21. Jul 2003 08:40 | ||
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| In looking at the 2 replies it seems I played both hands wrong. By making an even bigger bet on the flop of the first hand I would have really punished the players who were drawing. On the other hand if I got callers (which I think I might have given the way they were calling up to this point) I should have thought about the possibility of a set and been willing to lay the 2 pair down. Looking at it this way, since the players were such maniacs, 2-pair is not the kind of hand I should have been betting half my bank-roll on this early. Is that a fair estimation? In the second hand I do see the point of holding off on the all-in. In this case I'm not sure it would have helped. Getting the A-A was just very bad timing. I think the other player figured I was on tilt after losing the last hand, and since he had a little over twice my chips he wasn't too afraid of calling me down either way, but in the future I'll remember about (not) going all-in pre-flop. | ||
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| Re: Tell me I'm not crazy, 4 POKER, 21. Jul 2003 09:05 | ||
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| on 21. Jul 2003 08:40 McMonkey wrote: > In looking at the 2 replies it seems I played both hands wrong. > > By making an even bigger bet on the flop of the first hand I would have really > punished the players who were drawing. On the other hand if I got callers (which I > think I might have given the way they were calling up to this point) I should have > thought about the possibility of a set and been willing to lay the 2 pair down. > Looking at it this way, since the players were such maniacs, 2-pair is not the kind > of hand I should have been betting half my bank-roll on this early. Is that a fair > estimation? > > In the second hand I do see the point of holding off on the all-in. In this case > I'm not sure it would have helped. Getting the A-A was just very bad timing. I > think the other player figured I was on tilt after losing the last hand, and since he > had a little over twice my chips he wasn't too afraid of calling me down either way, > but in the future I'll remember about (not) going all-in pre-flop. Hey McMonkey, Even though your opponent had twice as many chips and thought you were on tilt from the previous hand, do you really think he would have called an all-in bet by you on the flop after he didn't flop a 7? You didn't mention what cards came up exactly on the flop, but I would bet, that if one or two high cards came up, he wouldn't want to risk his chips either if you made a huge or all-in bet. And if he does call you here without flopping a set?....he's just looking to get knocked out. IMO, he shouldn't have even called your initial all -in re-raise. Even if he's trying to buy the pot, you still had enough chips that could have really crippled his chip position all-together with a hand like 7-7, and at that point he should have folded. But like I said, I still think you should have waited for the flop....regardless of the outcome. | ||
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| Re: Tell me I'm not crazy, stdioh, 21. Jul 2003 09:43 | ||
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| In the first instance, I don't think you played the hand well. You don't have the nuts on the flop. You are beat by a set of X's and higher sets are unlikely, but possible. Your bet of 200 was ok. Generally here you want to make a pot sized bet because QK is in the playing zone and you're likely to have opponents drawing to a straight. Now on the turn your bet of 300 is woefully inadequate. You've now got a flush draw out there to add to your problems and you should be desperate to fold off your opponents. I think that again you need to pot it, and if that means putting yourself to almost no chips then just shove all in. It is your own fault for letting the flush draw in cheaply. Since NL is such an implied odds game it is incorrect to let a flush draw in there with just marginally worse than correct odds. If he makes his hand he knows that he will be paid off (if he is smart - this guy was stupid and didn't bet his hand). Generally you want to make bets that scare the pants off of draws and either fold them or make them grossly overpay. You want to be called here by KJ or QX. You don't want to be called by the straight and flush draws because they tend to improve to hands that you can't beat. KJ improves to a hand that you dominate as does QX very often (assuming that this is 2 pair with the X on board). In the second case, your aces are a big favourite, but they aren't guaranteed to hold up. This happens all the time. Tough darts - deal with it. If I had a dollar for every time my aces got beat like that I would have a much higher poker income than I do. | ||
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| Re: Tell me I'm not crazy, Bond18, 21. Jul 2003 16:15 | ||
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| 4 POKER and stdioh i really enjoyed your posts, especially about the first hand. My opinion on the second though, is if i can get all my chips in as a 82% favorite, i'll do it every time, especially considering in a tournament atmosphere it may be necessary to double up if the blinds increase quickly. | ||
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| Re: Tell me I'm not crazy, stdioh, 22. Jul 2003 10:44 | ||
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| Yes. That is why you get them in preflop when you have a 4/5 chance of beating any other hand out there. On the flop if he hits he will punnish you and you can't get away from your aces, but if he hits nothing he will fold and leave you with a smaller win. | ||
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