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Server Time: 11/22/2008 1:22:18 AM PACIFIC |
 Limping In & Paying the Price, 4 POKER, 20. Jul 2003 04:30 | ||
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| I sat in a $10-20, 6 player max table tonight on Party Poker. There were two consecutive hands that a player decided to limp in pre-flop instead of raising, and it wound up costing him dearly. The first hand he had limped in with K-K and I was in the SB with the A-10 of spades. There were no other raisers in the pot and it was just down to me (who chose to limp in for the added $5), and the BB who checked along with me. The flop comes up, J-6-3 with 2 spades. I decided to check-raise the flop if someone made a bet. As it turns out, the BB bets, but the player holding K-K just calls. I knew I had to hit the flush or the Ace, but I still wasn't sure if an Ace was going to be good enough. Well I check-raise the flop anyway and both players just call. The turn brings an Ace, so I lead at it, folding off the BB, leaving me heads up with K-K. The river brings the 4 of spades, giving me the nuts. I made a little hesitation in hoping that he would take that as a sign of weakness....and than I bet. He called me and then showed his hand ....maybe looking for a response, but I made no comment. Hand #2. Very next hand, I'm now on the button with K-J suited. Noone raises again and now 4 of us see the flop. The flop comes up, Q-9-3 rainbow. The SB checked all the way around to the player who held the 2 Kings in the previous hand. He bets out, I call looking to spike the 10 on the turn but if I don't hit it, I decided I wasn't going to call any more bets, (unless I hit a K and there's not too much action on the turn now). Anyway, the turn brings an Ace and now there's a possible flush draw on the board, but NOBODY bets. It was checked all the way around. The river card brings an off-suit 10 giving me the nut straight. NOW, the first two players check again, but the guy in LP (same guy with the K-K) bets out. I, of course raise, the other two fold and now he raises me again. For a minute I thought, "Oh, I hope he isn't holding the same hand"! I cap off the betting, my hand gets turned over and he shows me his hand once again, but this time it was pocket Aces. He never raised coming in, he didn't even bet the turn when he turned the set! Who did he think was going to bet the hand for him? Me? Once the two players check the turn...he can't assume that I would bet it for him. He had the stone cold nuts and would not even bet it there and the only time he did get aggressive with it, was when he could have been beat! This time he had some really clever choice words, saying how the "site is rigged'' and how "lucky" I was because I had called ALL bets and pulled a straight out of my arse. I think he forgot that he missed a really big bet on the turn and allowed me to get there for free...or anybody else for that matter who may have been holding the 4-flush. He went on complaining about how much money he had lost tonight and that he was getting crushed in a N/L game. I thought, hmmm, maybe your style of play is best suited for N/L, but of course, I didn't say a word. He really thought he took two horrendous bad beats when in reality, if he had played his hands more correctly and aggresively, he probably would have won hand #2. There was no way I was surrendering the first hand after flopping the nut flush draw and top pair on the turn....but still...at least GIVE yourself the opportunity to win the hand. I would have thought that after getting beat with his limp in K-K hand, that he would have chose to play his pocket Aces a little bit differently. I remember sitting in a $15-30 game in AC where the game was so tight it squeaked! Everyone had folded to me, and I was on the button with pocket Aces. I decided to be cute and just limp, and I remember the small blind (regular player) saying to me, "you're gonna get punished for limping in with those 2 Aces!"....And he was right....I lost the hand to something like 9-2 when the BB flopped two pair. So instead of winning the blinds which would have been $25, I wound up losing over $100. We all want to win monster pots when we hold K-K and A-A, but sometimes you have to settle for just winning the blinds. What do you guys think about limping in with K-K and A-A in a limit game? Personally, I think it's a bad idea. Anyway......Tonight I was fortunate enough to cash in from a players passive and weak play. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Limping In & Paying the Price, Giocatore, 20. Jul 2003 08:37 | ||
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| 4 POKER, Great post. I cannot tell you how often I have seen players with strong holdings limp rather than raise and end up getting burned by an inferior hand like 2-9o from the big blind. What I find even more humorous is nearly every time this happens, the person who limped with wired aces or kings will show his cards to the table as if he's looking for sympathy. It really boggles the mind. In situations where I'm at or near the button in a ring game and everyone has folded to me, if I have A-A or K-K, I always raise. My reasons are that I don't want to give the SB a cheap call and the BB a free look at the flop. More importantly, I think that raising late also creates the image that I'm trying to steal the blinds. Therefore, the BB may call with his Q-9o just to have a look at the flop. When that guy turned an ace and made a set, he made a huge mistake. The only way I would have considered giving a free river card is if there were no draws on board. He has no one to blame but himself, and the fact that he called you lucky and berated you for calling "all" bets, even that phantom turn bet, is just his way of venting his frustration of losing and not wanting to admit that he missed a key bet which would have most certainly gotten you to fold your gutshot draw. Thanks for the story, keep posting similar ones from your live/online sessions and good luck. Giocatore | ||
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| Re: Limping In & Paying the Price, 4 POKER, 20. Jul 2003 08:49 | ||
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| Hey Gio, Good point. Many times when a player raises from a steal position, the other players (SB and BB) won't even put you on a powerhouse and often they will play back at you. So, yeah, I agree that you should raise with your real premium hands and if they chose to call you....good, and if they don't, you settle for the blinds. (I learned that myself a bit ago)! Costly lesson, but never did it again! The part about him showing his cards at the end was exactly what I thought....he was looking for sympathy. And IMO, that was just another big mistake because now you just showed the entire table how you play. Showing a bluff is one thing, but showing how you played a real hand, and incorrectly I may add, is just a bad habit to get into. BTW, I love being called "lucky"! (LOL). Take care. | ||
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| Re: Limping In & Paying the Price, DJpoker, 20. Jul 2003 09:21 | ||
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| Hey 4Poker, I agree at 10-20 or higher, you always raise with AA & KK. How about 3-6 and 5-10 though? I have read many books where it says it's almost never profitable to raise at lower limits due to calling stations, etc. I have been raising with AA, KK and AK from EP and MP, but I'm wondering if LP raise is appropriate with 2-3 limpers and not knowing what the Blinds will do. Thanks for the input. DJpoker | ||
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| Re: Limping In & Paying the Price, 4 POKER, 20. Jul 2003 09:45 | ||
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| Hey DJ, If you hold A-A or K-K, IMO, you want to put in as much money as possible pre-flop and make your opponents pay to play their hands. Especially if you already have 2 to 3 limpers in already. If I'm holding A-A and three people already limped in....I'm not looking to let the blinds in for free. If they chose to call my raise that's fine....but I wouldn't mind taking this hand 3 handed either. If I knew what the flop was going to bring and I could guarantee myself a winner, then yeah, I'd let them all in, But when you have a strong hand...you should play it aggressively....protect it..... and maximize on it at every opportunity you get. The books may state otherwise for low limit hold-em, but I have found for myself and past results, that raising has been a more correct play. 4P- | ||
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| Re: Limping In & Paying the Price, mongi, 20. Jul 2003 10:59 | ||
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| Some books say that you should limp in early position with pocket aces if your raises are getting too much respect. I still believe you should almost always raise. When you limp it does add deception to your game and may give you the chance to reraise thus getting more money into the pot with the best hand. My problem with this is that those times you limp and get beat by someone who would have folded if you had raised can be psychologically damaging to you. I have had this happen and the rest of the session I was bummed out and kicking myself for not raising. In theory, the best scenerio is getting in the max number of players with the max number of bets. If this were to happen you would win less often but win more money in the long run. Everytime I have limped in the past it was almost like a self fullfilling prophecy. I knew bad cards would come for me. I totally agree with 4 POKER that it is better to win a small pot than put yourself in a situation were you may lose alot of money because you limped. If someone has already raised and you think everyone to the left of you is going to fold(your in late position) then smooth calling can be a good deceptive play. | ||
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| Re: Limping In & Paying the Price, 4 POKER, 20. Jul 2003 22:04 | ||
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| Thanks. Good post mongi. 4P- | ||
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| Re: Limping In & Paying the Price, Schuster, 20. Jul 2003 11:47 | ||
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| I nearly always raise with KK and AA. On a few occasions, with a lot of people already in the pot, I will just call / check with KK in the blinds, to see if the ace comes first, and plan on check raising the flop. Occasionally you get played back for 3 bets with someone with top top which is good, but you still need to put on the brakes a bit. I agree though, slowplaying them is just asking to get beat. If you just get the blinds, then hey, that's life. Lee | ||
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| Re: Limping In & Paying the Price, 4 POKER, 20. Jul 2003 21:59 | ||
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| on 20. Jul 2003 11:47 Schuster wrote: > I nearly always raise with KK and AA. On a few occasions, with a lot of people > already in the pot, I will just call / check with KK in the blinds, to see if the ace > comes first, and plan on check raising the flop. Occasionally you get played back > for 3 bets with someone with top top which is good, but you still need to put on the > brakes a bit. I agree though, slowplaying them is just asking to get beat. If you > just get the blinds, then hey, that's life. > > Lee Hey Lee, I agree that if you are in one of the blinds and there was already 3 raises, I will often just call the 3 bets with K-K instead of capping it,(adding deception while still being able to release it if an Ace flops)......but if there were only 1 or 2 raises, I will re-raise with K-K regardless of my position. Thanks for the input, Lee. 4P- | ||
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| Re: Limping In & Paying the Price, LJH, 20. Jul 2003 13:14 | ||
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| 4 POKER, WITH AA OR KK I NEVER LIMP IN I RAISE AS OFTEN AS I AM ABLE. WHY GIVE THE LUMPKINS A CHANCE TO DRAW YOU OUT WITH LITTLE CARDS. LJH | ||
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| Re: Limping In & Paying the Price, 4 POKER, 20. Jul 2003 21:48 | ||
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| on 20. Jul 2003 13:14 LJH wrote: > 4 POKER, WITH AA OR KK I NEVER LIMP IN I RAISE AS OFTEN AS I AM ABLE. WHY GIVE THE > LUMPKINS A CHANCE TO DRAW YOU OUT WITH LITTLE CARDS. LJH Hey LJH, Yeah, I always raise, too. Lumpkins huh? ........That's a new one!:) | ||
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| Re: Limping In & Paying the Price, mroban, 20. Jul 2003 13:32 | ||
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| 4Poker: I have been playing seriously for only a year, but with pretty solid results. Mostly, in limit games, I have followed Sklansky's advice of raising about 75% of the time from early position with AA or KK and limping the other 25% mainly for deception/varied play. If the pot is unopened from a middle position or later I will always raise. Often I find I get called just because others think I am trying to steal, which is great. In NL tournaments, Cloutier has recommended limping from an early position with KK or AA in middle rounds (not when the blinds are cheap, but when they get to 100-200 or higher). I don't think Cloutier means that you should always do it, but you can get a little action that way, maybe a reraise and hit a big pot. Perhaps his theory is that you want to maximize your pot size in the middle of a tournament, rather than just win the blinds. Anyway, I have been mainly following that advice. But early in NL tournaments (or when I have a big stack already) I typically will raise 3-4x blinds and be glad to win the blinds if nobody calls. | ||
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| Re: Limping In & Paying the Price, 4 POKER, 20. Jul 2003 20:32 | ||
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| Hey mroban, You've brought up some good points. In Sklansky's book, does he reccommend limping in 25% for all limits,(and only from EP), because I usually play hold-em at $10-20 and above.... and would that also apply if the game was shorthanded? Do you think that theory should apply in any type of game, passive, loose, tough, aggresive,etc? I've never tried to limp in with A-A, but I know if other/s have limped in already, and even if noone has limped....I will always raise with A-A and K-K. Another Q: if you do limp in with A-A and somebody behind you raises, would you now re-raise, or would you still just call, adding to that deception play that he talks about? And if others have called his raise, would you re-raise now to try and build a pot and/or to try and eliminate some of them, or would you still just call and play it really deceptively, and wait for the flop to come up? Of course I'm only referring this to limit hold-em because that's what I play, but I agree that N/L is a much different game and is played differently as well.....I agree with Cloutier's theory, although I am not a N/L player. Thanks for your response to my post. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Limping In & Paying the Price, Schuster, 21. Jul 2003 00:17 | ||
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| > You've brought up some good points. In Sklansky's book, does he reccommend limping in 25% > for all limits,(and only from EP), because I usually play hold-em at $10-20 and above.... > and would that also apply if the game was shorthanded? Do you think that theory should > apply in any type of game, passive, loose, tough, aggresive,etc? I'm not Mroban, but I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents on this. I would never limp in a shorthanded game simply because they play more aggresively. When you raise, people are a lot less likely to suspect you for a big pocket pair and you will get enough action if someone else has a hand. It's the same reason I think always raising is the proper play with AA and KK if you are in steal position. Sure, you might win just the blinds, but you could have a wide variety of hands, and people are more likely to play with you on a button or cutoff open raise. I think I would only limp with AA or KK in early position in a tough or squeaky tight game. The problem is that a limp reraise just screams aces or kings in a game like this. Thus, you will lose extra money when you are beaten, since most will know your holding, and you won't win as much when you aren't. If you just open with a raise, you could have a variety of hands, and will get more action from someone with top top. If you just limp / call a raise, you're asking to get beaten by letting people in cheaply. You might not win as big a pot as you would have, but you have a much better chance of winning. | ||
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| Re: Limping In & Paying the Price, 4 POKER, 21. Jul 2003 01:04 | ||
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| Lee, I play almost all 6 player max games and I always raise with my big pairs, even if I'm on the button. The way I see it is, for the most part, on-line poker is pretty loose and even when you raise, they're still gonna call you. I'd rather get the money in the pot so I don't think it's necessary to slowplay. And if winning the blinds is all you profit from....than so be it, it all adds up. So all in all, I think we agree that raising is better. Like I said, the books may state to do otherwise sometimes....but this has worked pretty good for me thus far, and I'm not sure if Sklansky is even referring to on-line play because for the most part, it is a different game all-together. | ||
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| Re: Limping In & Paying the Price, Kid, 20. Jul 2003 22:12 | ||
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| Hey 4Poker, I'm not a big fan of slowplaying in general. Good hands don't come around often enough, so if you want of practice deception, I would much rather speed up weaker hands than slow down good ones. Also, if the game so tight that you're tempted to limp with a big hand, it might be best to find a different game. Here's the one exception where I will limp with AA and KK. If I'm in a mini-blind game, I'll often go for a limp raise. because I hate to raise say $10, then win only 5 in blinds. However, I only go for a limp raise from early position, if I'm in late position, I expect more callers anyways. I think this is the best way to inflate the pot with the best of it. KID | ||
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| Re: Limping In & Paying the Price, 4 POKER, 20. Jul 2003 22:25 | ||
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| Hey Kid, I totally agree with you....good hands don't come around often enough and if you get the chance to maximize on the hand, then you should. Make them pay. The others have brought up those points as well, when you're in the blinds and there has already been alot of raising, to use that position to make your hand deceptive and to just call instead of capping it with K-K, but with A-A, and for the majority of the time, (even with K-K), I will raise the full amount.....especially if I'm trying to knock people out that may be playing AX. Thanks. 4P- | ||
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| Re: Limping In & Paying the Price, shorn, 21. Jul 2003 05:33 | ||
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| I would never ever ever ever limp with KK in any game because there are too many players willing to play any ace. That is just plain stupid. However, if I have had AA a few times, raised and only won the blinds each time, i might limp depending on my position to slightly alter my play and also hope that I can limp re-raise. I also think that Sklansky recommends raising 95% of the time with these hands and not 75%. When you have a big hand, you want as much $$ in the pot while you know you are the favorite. | ||
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| Re: Limping In & Paying the Price, Slate, 21. Jul 2003 08:20 | ||
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| Since were talking about limit table games and not tourney games the AA should be played based on the table amount and position. In a $3-$6 game you have small blinds and calling stations, so you have to accept that people will call you to the end and your AA could loose. I would keep raising/re-raising AA and be ready to dump it on the flop or turn depending on what unfolds and who is betting. In a higher limit game players are more cautious and tend to play better. So if you are in early position your raising could knock out most or all players and you could win the blinds, or play against 1 or 2 players. In late position if all called then raise because the pot is looking better. If I am in early position I like to call sometimes just to vary the way I play AA, KK. If you flop something big then you have a disguise because you did not bet before the flop. It makes AA kind of fun to play. If you are looking for blinds the raise. When people get AA,KK they light up. I look at AA,KK and say wow, I am going to win this pot. But recently I tried not to get to overly involved with these cards unless I am in a tourney and need to steal blinds etc. I have been burn too many times by people calling my raises and winning on the river. Sure my cards were a huge favorite but that makes it even worse when you lose. So I like to treat these cards as fun cards and let people battle it out. When I hit hard on the flop/turn I join the battle and then people flip when I come out of no where to win the pot. Don't get me wrong, I think AA,KK should be played like the books, but its fun once in a while to limp in with these as long as your ready to dump em that rare time. | ||
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| Re: Limping In & Paying the Price, stdioh, 21. Jul 2003 10:20 | ||
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| There is really no excuse for limping with AA or KK preflop. On the right table at the right time I might think about it, but circumstances would be rare. Maybe if it were folded to me in mid position and I had a maniac after me who would raise just about anything and I wanted to limp reraise I would try it. Generally though, it is a big mistake to not raise your AA and KK. Likewise you always want to raise KK and QQ if you aren't in the blinds because you want to drive out AX and KX type hands and give yourself a better chance of standing up to a flop with overcards. | ||
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