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Server Time: 11/22/2008 1:35:52 AM PACIFIC |
 pumping the pot for medium suited connectors, MozMan, 19. Jul 2003 18:45 | ||
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| OK, I've been toying with this one a little, and thought it might make good discussion. I don't recall where I read about it, but I'm sure it must have been one of the Sklansky books. It goes like this: Low-limit passive HE game. Let's say you are dealt something like 98s in late position and there are a lot of limpers in front of you... maybe 6 or 7. You raise the blind at this point and make it two small bets to see the flop. In this game, you are unlikely to get anyone to fold if they have already limped in. Maybe one or both of the blinds will fold. So you see the flop with 14 to 17 small bets in the pot. If the flop doesn't help you at all, you can fold to a bet; but let's say it comes something like J7K. Now you have a gutshot straight draw. If someone in early or middle position bets out, you can pretty safely put them on a K, but you have proper pot odds to draw the inside straight, so you call one small bet on the flop. If half the field calls, there's now between 18 and 22 small bets (or 9-11 big bets) in the pot. If you get no help on the turn, again you can fold (you no longer have odds to draw the inside straight). If you catch your T, you bet/raise the hell out of it (assuming there's no 3-flush on the board). Or, let's say a 6 or 5 comes on the turn. Now you have either and open-ended straight draw, or a double-gutshot (same odds either way). You now have proper pot-odds to draw again, and can call one more bet. Now when the river comes, you either fill your straight or you don't. If you fill it, you bet/raise the hell out of it and scored a big pot that will pay for the other straight draws you chase (with proper odds). If you don't catch it, the play cost you an extra big bet minimum, but gave you an opportunity to proerly chase for a big a pot. What do you guys think about this kind of play? It seems a fairly simple play, and doesn't really fall into "FPS." From wha tI can tell, it seems it may be a +EV play overall. Do you agree? -Moz "May your chips never fall from a cow." | ||
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| Re: pumping the pot for medium suited connectors, BEE JAY, 19. Jul 2003 21:15 | ||
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| I agree with everything you said except for folding on the turn. If there are 9-11 big bets in the pot, then your 11-1 gutshot on the turn doesn't look too bad. | ||
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| Re: pumping the pot for medium suited connectors, MozMan, 19. Jul 2003 21:18 | ||
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| Very true. I was really thinking in terms of the 9 bets; but even at that, if you think a lot of people will stick around for the river, then you also have proper implied odds. Thanx for pointing that out BJ! -Moz "May your chips never fall from a cow." | ||
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| Re: pumping the pot for medium suited connectors, 4 POKER, 19. Jul 2003 21:27 | ||
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| Hey Moz, IMO, playing suited medium connectors in a good position in a very loose, passive game can be profitable, however, with so many players calling pre-flop, you're really looking to flop something really strong like drawing to the nut straight, but not a straight that would not be the nuts. If I held 9-8 suited but the flop came up J-K-7, I don't think I'd be calling any bets to try and hit a straight that wasn't the nuts. With all those players invoved, if you got involved with a flop like that, you could still hit your hand and lose and if you do call on the flop but now the turn brings a six...grant it, you would be open-ended now, but all those times that you call the flop and/or now call the turn, you would be putting bets in where your own holding did not warrant a call. Though those hands are playable....you're really looking to either flop the straight or have a draw at an open-ended straight. You're also going to have to make sure that if you do flop a straigt or an open-end straight, that the flop does not contan a flush or a flush draw different from your flush card holding. If you flop top pair, you would be in a real dilemma with your holding and if you flopped a flush, you still might not be any good because someone could have already flopped a higher flush or they could be drawing to the nut flush. I know this seems to be the worst case scenerio, but....when a pot has 7 to 8 limpers in it, you need to flop extremely good and that's why I'd prefer to flop a hand that was really perfect for my holding. Now there's nothing wrong with making the occasional raise on the button with a medium suited connector, but I wouldn't be calling or making any bets unless I was drawing to the nut straight or if I happened to gey lucky and flop a full-house, (but we all know how often that happens)...so if you're looking to build a pot pre-flop, then make sure you are *willing to throw it away* when it doesn't hit you hard enough. Try not to chase any gut-shot straights with too many over callers, especially when their not the nuts. The pot odds may look great....but your own holding may not be yielding you enough "nut outs". 4P- | ||
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| Re: pumping the pot for medium suited connectors, MozMan, 19. Jul 2003 21:51 | ||
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| Hey 4- Thanx for the analysis! So essentially, our example is better served with a flop like 56K, so a holding with AQ can't take the pot away if the T comes on the turn or river, right? One other question, do you think that the fact that our 98 are suited make much of a difference? Sometimes I feel like unsuited connectors of middle rank are just as good, because I amost DON'T want to see a flush in my suit if my highest card is a 9... for the same reason you mentioned, too many overcards in the same suit that can beat me. -Moz "May your chips never fall from a cow." | ||
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| Re: pumping the pot for medium suited connectors, 4 POKER, 19. Jul 2003 22:09 | ||
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| Hey Moz, I think if I'm holding 9-8, I would prefer to flop an open-end straight with a board that read 7-6-K or if it *was* a gut shot draw, then I'd be looking to at least flop a draw to the nut gut shot straight like, 7-5-K (for example). But if you do flop a draw to the straight, as long as it's the nut straight draw, you can probably call one bet to see if you hit it on the turn, but I wouldn't be calling any more than that unless I was drawing to an open-end nut straight and there was not a flush draw present. If you can call cheaply, then do so, but if the players now get very aggressive.....you have to reconsider your call there unless you're drawing to the nuts. As far as holding the hand suited.....that's like a catch 22 situation because if you did flop a flush or a flush draw, if there were just a few of you in there or you were heads up, you probably could continue drawing to the flush with greater ease, but like I mentioned, with all those players in the pot, even though you may be getting really good odds to continue....your flush draw may not be one that would hold up. You want volume with your hand...but too much volume also means that you must flop really, really good. Yes, having the hand suited does make it stronger, you'll just have to proceed with caution though if you flop the draw to one, but now the betting gets really heavy. Many times that would indicate that somebody else is drawing to an even higher one. But it will depend on the situaton and how the betting took place, too. I just wouldn't want to be calling any bets on the flop that may cause me to be sucked in now on the turn, and that's why I wouldn't call a bet on the flop with 9-8 if the board read K-J-7 because the turn card may now give me the nut straight draw, but all those times that you would call a bet on the flop (AND turn), in the long run, I think you may be costing yourself too many bets that you could have saved for a flop that *did* hit you good. | ||
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| Re: pumping the pot for medium suited connectors, Mark, 19. Jul 2003 22:01 | ||
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| While the stradegy is sound because of the calling nature of low-limits, you will experience a much bigger swing in your stack and bankroll playing so aggressively. If you can handle the swings, you may catch a nice run of cards and beat up a game pretty good. mark | ||
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| Re: pumping the pot for medium suited connectors, PairTheBoard, 19. Jul 2003 22:53 | ||
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| I think part of the value in such play is to better allow you to represent all types of boards. Even without all the limpers I might put a raise in sometimes - though rarely - even in early position. If you only raise with high cards then your opponents will come to think they own any low card flop whether they hit it or not. Doing this occassionally makes you always dangerous to them. It's especially nice when you get heads up against someone who puts you on AK and you win the showdown after some tough betting. Everyone will want a piece of you after that while you go back to your rock type play. It's even nicer if you can get a rush of legitimate raising hands soon after. That's my theory anyway. | ||
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| Re: pumping the pot for medium suited connectors, 4 POKER, 20. Jul 2003 01:22 | ||
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| on 19. Jul 2003 22:53 PairTheBoard wrote: > I think part of the value in such play is to better allow you to represent all types > of boards. Even without all the limpers I might put a raise in sometimes - though > rarely - even in early position. If you only raise with high cards then your > opponents will come to think they own any low card flop whether they hit it or not. > Doing this occassionally makes you always dangerous to them. It's especially nice > when you get heads up against someone who puts you on AK and you win the showdown > after some tough betting. Everyone will want a piece of you after that while you go > back to your rock type play. It's even nicer if you can get a rush of legitimate > raising hands soon after. > > That's my theory anyway. I think the reasoning you mentioned as to being abe to represent all types of boards, is a good theory, and players *will* pay you off the next time when you do hold a monster hand, but that's providing that you are able to show that medium connector in a showdown. Even if you raise the hand pre-flop....it still has to hit if you're in a really loose game with many limpers. So if you want to be a little bit more liberal with your pre-flop raises so your oponents will have a real hard time reading you....that's okay, as long as you are still solid and strong enough to throw it away when it *doesn't* hit. I don't think I would raise the hand too often in an up-front position though, but near or on the button I would (occasionally), providing that noone has raised it already. 4P- | ||
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| Re: pumping the pot for medium suited connectors, mongi, 20. Jul 2003 11:07 | ||
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| The problem with trying to be deceptive with a hand like suited connectors from an early position is that many times you will never get to the river to be able to show down your hand. Raising in late position with this holding can be a good play if you know you won't be reraised and the players at your table continue to play loose from the flop onward. | ||
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| Re: pumping the pot for medium suited connectors, philly, 20. Jul 2003 09:36 | ||
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| It seems to me this strategy is better for higher suited connecters where you stand a chance at top pair and a draw. Now you've increased your outs with the ability to spike a second pair or trips along with your gutshot or flush draw. That seems like a much better ev play to me. | ||
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| Re: pumping the pot for medium suited connectors, Andrew Wells, 20. Jul 2003 20:26 | ||
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| I usually make this sort of raise because I'm playing for a flop which may also help a blind hand too much. I'd rather give the small blind a reason to fold, and also add to my aggressive image as well. It's even stronger from the cutoff position since I may get the button to fold, and now have possible free card play options on the flop. | ||
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| Re: pumping the pot for medium suited connectors, shorn, 21. Jul 2003 05:25 | ||
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| I agree with most of what is posted, however I would make this play more with a true medium suited connector that doesn't have the chance of a lone A taking or sharing the pot with you (as your example does if the T comes and then a Q comes). This is because in LLHE, many players will play any Ace which you want, but in this case it can turn your good hand into a loser. So, I stick with 54-87 for this play, if I choose to raise at all. | ||
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| Re: pumping the pot for medium suited connectors, stdioh, 21. Jul 2003 10:23 | ||
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| Yikes. There can be arguments made for raising your suited connectors in late position because you might be able to get a free turn when everybody checks to the raiser and you're getting odds to try for a monster hand. The problem is that in your situation that hand is poison. There is never an excuse to draw to an idiot end of a gutshot. What happens when you make your hand and somebody makes a better straight? There are so many ways to lose that and so few ways to win. You're best off folding to a bet here. What you want is to flop up/down or a flush draw and have everybody married to the pot so that you can pump in money and be a favourite to make your hand. This is still risky with a low flush though because you could get drawn out to a 4-flush on board or even beat by a bigger honest flush. up/down to the nuts is a nice luxury, but if flops rarely. When you get a free turn then you have a much better chance of something like this. | ||
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