|
||
|
||
|
Server Time: 11/22/2008 1:05:43 AM PACIFIC |
 Shorthand vs Longhand, pt_Gatsby, 19. Jul 2003 12:39 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Ever since I have joined UB, I have been playing in shorthanded cheap sit'n'gos. My winning percent has been extremely high (now placed in the money, which is 1st/2nd of 6 in 10/11 games!). I have no illusion that I'm a great player, but I'm curious about why I can't perform nearly as well in longhanded games. I figure at this point it is a little bit more than just luck... I must be doing something right in shorthanded, or very wrong in long handed. I think it might be the way I calculate my odds. I'm still typing up the numbers in an effort to understand the differences (and the level of divergence in good/bad hands), but have some questions of those who have been playing a long time, or have a mathematical background... My partial heads up has been thrown at up http://www.geocities.com/pt_gatsby/ . Apologize for the horrific conversion from excel! EV with hidden information. I keep hearing that you should aim for having a positive EV, which makes sense. All of the implied/pot odds come from this theory... but it seems to me that there is a max/min effect going on. If you have a hand, such as KQs, which would normally win 63% of the time, it has only a 43% of winning against a AJ, or similar! It seems to me that any game resolves around 'relative' EV, in that you are still engaging in a coin flip situation... By having more players, you are pushing relatively good hands into the 'bad bin'. Where KQs is practically an all-in hand preflop in heads up, it seems somewhat marginal with even 7 people. Even though its win rate is about 24% to 12%(avg), the relative hand value to those that would be auto-played put it mid-range. I guess the whole question resolves around what people consider to be +EV pre-flop. It can't be just "better than average" hands, since that is the normal thought process... making every played hand better than generic odds. In shorthanded games, suited connectors are worth just about crap - is this accurate? You almost always play from the upfont value... Looking at the table, about the only suited connecter worth playing seems to be from the 10+category anyway. Better a 33 than a 9/8s! I have developped a basic strategy which goes something like this. Note that it works based upon shorthanded games, with me breaking the rules progressively less at it approaches 2 people (ie: I'm much less likely to deviate from the odds when its 1v1). -Call or limp in with any hand with a 55-60% chance of winning. Fold any hand with over one raise(any raise without being BB). -Call with any hand with a 60% chance of winning, short of insanity. -Raise any hand with a hand higher than 70% (which involves only upper pairs). -Fold or check any hand with a negative winning percent. -Call anything from 50-55% (ie: fold unless BB, 1/2bet at SB) I modify the rules based on position (ie: with a 70%+hand UTG I may check raise, depending on the table... As BB, I will often double up the largest bet to date. More so if it is about 80% win rate, like AA/KK). If I am chip leader, and am above the 50% of chips level, then I play very passive. Any hand in which I can steal blinds with little net risk, I do. The goal then is to exploit any amazing hand you have, but stay at 50% for the heads up portion. The other side, if I am below average, I play very aggressively. From the table above, I sort of knock it down a stage, and raise anything reasonable. Yet, when I play with 10 people, I have yet to make money, at all! Its giving me quite a loop. Since most ring games and tournaments have 10 people table, I'm finding myself in the middle of the pack every single time. Any other ideas what could cause that? | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Shorthand vs Longhand, Banning, 20. Jul 2003 21:35 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| I have experienced this phenomenon alot amongst my friends. For the last few months we have been playing alot of short handed poker and it has been very fun and an interesting learning experience. A few of my friends usually don't do that well when the table is large but later on in the night as some people start going home those players that were the big losers suddenly turn into the big winners. I think short handed play has a totally different style. One is of being way more aggresive. The other is that you really need to have good reads on people. With a larger group one simply needs to learn how to tighten up a bit more. I would recommend that you participate in fewer hands. That is just a guess based on watching my friends style of play and assuming you both have similar afflictions. An interesting side not. After playing short handed for quite a long time we got a decent gang together and played 7 handed poker (still kinda short handed but not for a home game) and I totally destroyed. I had learned so much from my short handed play and it transferred over, all I did was increase my starting requirements and then bam I played awesome. It was quite nice. I came out with the biggest winning session I have ever had. Anyhow, I hope this was at all helpful, I didn't talk at all about none of that % based mathematical stuff that you did. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Shorthand vs Longhand, stdioh, 21. Jul 2003 09:16 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| I'm not sure about it. I find that I do very well in both formats, but it depends. If I sit down at a 10-handed sit-n-go and it turns out very solid then I think I can perform better there. When it is very fishy then the shorthanded is the way to go. Basically I find that bad players tend to be maniacal in these tourneys and that mania is more apropriate in a shorthanded tourney and thus I find the ten man games better. However I find that the "relatively" solid players play decidedly poorly shorthanded because they are a little too tight and a little too weak. Thus I like the 6-handed games that way. Long story short, I think that the 6-handed tourneys are becomming more profitable as it goes because the fish are starting to run out of money on UB and it is starting to equalize. After Aruba was on TV they flooded in, but the money they put into the poker economy is drying up as some become better players and others quit. I think that soon, if not already, the 6-handed tourney will be the preferred format, but right now I'll still prefer the 10-handed for $10+1 tourneys. $20+2, the 6-handed may already be better. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Shorthand vs Longhand, pt_Gatsby, 21. Jul 2003 12:43 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Thanks guys :) Whenever I learn something new, even poker, I take a very immersive analytical track on it. I went over my records for las week and this is what it turned up to be: 6 ppl sit'n'gos. 10 Tournaments, placed 2nd in 6, won 3, didn't place in 1. Up 24$net from the 2nds (all at $5 ones) and up 85$net from the winners. 10ppl sit'n'gos. 6 tournaments. 0 money 6 ppl ring games. 12 hours, net loss is 74$ odd. 10 ppl ring games. 2 hours, net loss < 1$ ------- Something is clearly wrong. I cannot play ring games worth crap, I learned that. But I also can't seem to play large tables worth crap. However, in the last bit, I have been near perfect in the shorthanded ones. I don't want to narrow my view and just play them, but hell... ------- I'll check my opening strategy in 10 player sitngos... Hopefully that is all it is :) And I'll check the level of competition. Since I haven't even broken stride since moving to the 10$ ones, I may sit in a couple of higher shorthanded to see where I stand exactly. I want a level where it is competitive... but I also want to win. However, staying with the game you currently have won't let you get any better... | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Shorthand vs Longhand, stdioh, 21. Jul 2003 14:31 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Sounds like you knack is for shorthanded games, but beware that this could also just be random variation. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| POKER FORUM HOME | POKER FORUM | LINK TO US | ARCHIVE | ONLINE POKER | Copyright 2002, United Poker Forum |
|
Getting Started |
UPF Tournaments |
Poker News, Views, Rules |
Poker Strategy & Psychology |
Money and Bankroll Poker Bonuses & Promotions | World Series of Poker (WSOP) | Play Online Poker | Poker Odds & Statistics | Tournament Poker | Poker Books, Videos & Learning Tools Looking for a Poker Game | Poker Bad Beats | Not Quite Poker | Quizzes and Polls | Forum Suggestions & Bugs |
|
|
|
|
Interesting Links: Online Poker | Free Poker Games | United Poker Network |
|