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Server Time: 11/21/2008 11:19:48 PM PACIFIC |
 did I play this hand wrong?, spawgan, 16. Jul 2003 22:09 | ||
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| Once again I ask this because I am less than 3 months into learning this game. I won the pot, but I have a feeling I stole one I shouldn't have won. I have 8-8 on the button. There is one raise from a player who raises on every pre-flop regardless of what they have so I called along with 4 others. Flop comes 5-j-q rainbow. Everyone checks so I check. Turn comes off J. Everyone checks, so I put them as not having either a j or q and bet. Called by 3. River comes down J, I bet and one person raises, I call and he had rags. Was this a right play and was my thinking process right here? | ||
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| Re: did I play this hand wrong?, 4 POKER, 16. Jul 2003 23:16 | ||
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| Hey Spawgan, Lets take the hand from the beginning. You were on the button and someone raised and you called just one bet with pocket 88's. So far, so good. You didn't have to call more than one raise and with that pair and the fact that you were in very good position to call the one raise and you had enough callers to give you the correct odds if you do hit it.......I think your call was correct. The flop came up Q-J- rag and *noone had bet, not even you...which is still a good check by you in my opinion, because there were overcards out there and with that many players in the hand I wouldn't be making a bet either with a pair of 8's. So, as of now....all is still correct IMO. Now, the turn card pairs the Jack and NOONE bets again? If I were in your spot (which was last to act), I would have put in a bet myself, but not so much as I think I am bluffing....but because at this point I feel that perhaps my 8-8's are the best, so why not try to get the remaining players to fold now? They made no attempt whatsoever to put in a bet on the flop or the turn, so at this point I would take a stab at the pot, as well....just like you had done. Now, the river bet. You had mentioned that the river brought the 3rd J and that you had bet out but than got raised, BUT I think what you meant to write was that everyone had CHECKED to you so you bet it again, correct? Because if you're on the button like you were, you wouldn't be able to bet out unless they all checked to you first and I'm bringing this up so we can be perfectly clear on the exact details. Ok, so everyone now checks it to you again so you bet. Actually, giving the fact that your own holding was still in a vulnerable state on the turn, the 3rd Jack makes me like your hand a little bit more now because with a flop of a Q and a J on the board, I'd be more afraid if the turn AND/OR the river card brought a card that could have completed a straight like an Ace, K, 10, 9 OR the absolute worse card on the river would have been the 2nd Queen because now the board would read: Q-Q-J-J-X, leaving you with only 8 high. So actually, that 3rd Jack (aside from the other 8) was probably your best card for you assuming that your 2 8's were still good and noone had a Queen. I wouldn't worry as much if someone held the 4th Jack, but I would be a little concerned if someone did hold a Queen. But when everyone checks the river you could bet Jacks full of 8's if you feel that you have the best hand but keep in mind....ANYONE who holds a Queen or something even better than you, they would have made a move somewhere in the hand. Also keep in mind that even though you were check-raised by a bluffer, the next time it may very well not be a bluff. Just something to think about when you are betting your own hand in a spot like this. But, on the other hand.....if you do bet (in which you did), you will also get a call from any player who held a pocket pair smaller than the one you held and you may even get paid off by Ace high, I've seen that, too. So all in all, the river bet is not a bad bet. You could probably do it either way (bet or check now) depending on how well you really know your opponents and if you feel that you would be able to extract a bet out of them with Ace high as well. But I want to know, as to WHY you think you played your hand wrong? The bet you made on the turn was NOT a bluff bet and that's the only thing that I think you need to understand here is....WHY do I (spawgan) make the bets that I make during ANY given hand and do I really understand why I am making them in the first place? It's so important that when we make certain decisions that are decisions are made from a clear and level-minded perspective and we are fully aware as to what we are trying to achieve from this bet, call, raise, etc. and which play would be the most *sound-minded* play and why. Alot to think about here, but you must know and understand all the factors before you enter a pot. Do I think you played the hand poorly? ABSOLUTELY NOT. But....do I feel that you may need to get a better understanding as to *WHY* a player makes the bets that he makes? Yes. Mainly because you thought that you *stole* it, because trust me....if anyone held a Queen or even better than that...... you would have heard from them! Your hand happened to be the best hand this time, that's all there is to it. Keep playing spawgan. You've only been playing a short time and with alot more playing experience, and *knowledge* of the game itself, (understanding ALL of the facets of poker).....your own game will definitely improve. The best to you. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: did I play this hand wrong?, shorn, 17. Jul 2003 04:49 | ||
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| I agree with 4P. I think you played the hand well. I may have checked the river on the off-chance that someone held 99 or TT. But, as 4P points out, the J on the river is actually a great card for you because it makes it even less likely that the case Jack is out. Also, your opponents played passively through the whole hand, including the river after the J fell making anyone holding a Q to have the best FH (I eliminate KK or AA because of the passivity of everyone else). So, I think you bet for value on the river here as anoter pair smaller than yours will call AND you may get the added benefit of folding 99 or TT. Give yourself more credit here spaw. You played this hand like a veteran. But, take 4P's advice to heart...know WHY you are making the plays that you are before you make them and you will see your decisionmaking and your hourly rate improve dramatically. As Lou Krieger says, "Always have a plan." Good luck, Steve | ||
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| Re: did I play this hand wrong?, spawgan, 17. Jul 2003 08:13 | ||
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| The one reason I thought I might have played it wrong was the calling of the last raise on the river. I figured when I was check-raised I might have been trapped but I called it since everyone had shown weak and I thought the pot odds justified it. Also I didnt know if putting in the bet on the river after it is checked to me was the right play rather than just calling, since if someone had a q or j I would saved myself two BB by just calling. All I wanted to know. thanks for the help guys. I am trying to learn. Just frustrating that there is no substitute for experience. | ||
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| Re: did I play this hand wrong?, stdioh, 17. Jul 2003 09:00 | ||
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| First of all, you should have thrown away your 88. You didn't have pot odds to try to flop a set and you can't cold call 2 bets with that cheese nomatter who is making it 2. Second, when it is checked around on the flop and you try to steal on the turn, that is usually a pretty good play, but it sounds like you would have a very hard time not getting callers. Still, if you have the best hand you want to fold off players who could hit a bigger pair on the river. When 2 players call you and the river falls, I think that check-calling is probably ok there, but I wouldn't ever bet that river. With the trips on board maybe you can think about it, but in general this is a situation in which you will not often be called by a hand that you can beat. | ||
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