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Server Time: 11/22/2008 1:17:45 AM PACIFIC |
 OMAHA 8 QUESTION, Giocatore, 16. Jul 2003 16:59 | ||
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| After taking a few tough beats in HE the other day I decided to switch to Omaha 8. I'm far from an expert in this particular game, but I have read several articles by renown authors on strategy and do have a general understanding on what hands to play and what hands to stay away from and/or muck when I don't have the best of it. I have even monied in a few Omaha 8 multi-table tourneys on PokerStars, with my best result being a 4th place finish in a $30 limit tourney with just over 100 entrants. Now please excuse me if this question seems trivial or has formerly been discussed at length. I was playing in a 2/4 Omaha 8 game, and twice I was the victim of sharing the nut low with another player and thus taking only 1/4 of the pot. I guess you could say that in both situations I was trapped, with the other nut low and nut high involved in a raising war and myself caught in the middle despite the fact that I was guaranteed at least 1/4 of the pot. Here is one hand I've summarized from a hand history: GIOCATORE: (Big Blind) Ah 2h 3d 4s OTHER NUT LOW: (Small Blind) As 2d 9c 10d NUT HIGH: (Middle position) Ac Kc Kh 6s Board: 3c 4c 10c 7d 9s In this particular situation both the small blind and myself ended up losing money. The only logical explanation I can come up with is that he failed to recognize the flush draw on board and truly believed that his two pair, 9's and 10's, might get him 3/4 of the pot, with him already holding the nut low. As I stated before, this happened twice to me, where there was another nut low firing away and costing both himself and myself money. It also occurred in several other hands in which I was not involved. My question is, are these people just dumb or are they playing their hands correctly? I, for one, will not raise multi-way pots when I sense that there could be one or even two nut lows, in addition to mine. Any comments from those of you who know the game rather well, 4 POKER for example, would be appreciated, and again, I apologize if this question sounds a bit "newbie-ish." Thanks. Giocatore | ||
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| Re: OMAHA 8 QUESTION, Easy E, 16. Jul 2003 18:03 | ||
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| With a two-way hand, it makes sense to push the action for a while. However, when the obvious high hand comes along for the ride, then you have to slow down after a while on the chance that you're quartered. Another lesson- one of the key skills is recognizing when YOU are getting quartered, or risk doing so, and getting out even if you HAVE the nut low. Losing money on the nut low is a leak in O/8 that you need to learn how to deal with. It hurts throwing away the nut low, but sometimes it's better than getting whittled to death. | ||
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| In this case, especially, he was an idiot, Easy E, 16. Jul 2003 18:04 | ||
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| there was a straight out also... and trips is always possible. | ||
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| Re: In this case, especially, he was an idiot, 4 POKER, 16. Jul 2003 21:10 | ||
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| on 16. Jul 2003 18:04 Easy E wrote: > there was a straight out also... and trips is always possible. Well that's what happens sometimes when you play Omaha with an inexperienced player like the one Gio had mentioned. They push push push and don't even realize how much money they're losing in the process. I agree, but I still think that most players (even ones that have little experience) know when to back off, too. However, IMO, the person who went crazy while raising and raising his low hand could just be new to the game, so I don't think it would be fair to call someone like that an idiot. Maybe he just doesn't have enough knowledge of the game yet and thought that his low hand was good enough to bet it the way he did. That's what I think. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: OMAHA 8 QUESTION, 4 POKER, 16. Jul 2003 20:23 | ||
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| Hey Gio, Sometimes it would save you money if you threw the nut low away if there A) weren't enough players in the pot to assure you at the very least in a break out even situation (4 or more players), B) if the money you had previously invested would not be worth the remaining bets that you would be putting into the pot), C) when you don't have a good enough "read" on the other opponents to know if you were the only nut low contender, and D) when you're in a situation where you are not able to just check and call with your low hand because someone else is going to war raising *his* nut low as well, thus leaving you in a very negative spot overall.(adding way too many bets into the pot just to contribute more money to the high hand). And also, like the situation you were in when you had flopped the nut low DRAW but there was already a flush on the flop and there were only 3 of you remaining. Given a situation like that, I would have mucked the nut low draw right on the flop with not having anything invested in the first place and by not having a good enough high hand to go along with it, like even second nut flush and/or a set on the flop. In this case (hand #1), that is what seemed to have occured. But keep in mind, I have been in many situations where the same 2 players went on a raising war with the second best low and a second best high, (second nut flush, for example), only because they truly thought their own holding was good enough to get at least one side of the pot. And that happens sometimes when a player plays Omaha 8 and really doesn't understand the game enough and what the possibilities really are for someone to *easily* have them scooped in both directions. I think you were just put in a situation where the player with the other nut low had no clue that a flush had already flopped, and/OR.....he was trying to push out a weak high hand so he could get 3/4 of the pot with A) his nut low and B) his two pair, 10's and 9's; which by the way, is not a bad play sometimes when you *know* your opponents extrememly well. But when you play this game on line, you are less likely to get that extrememly good read to even justify making a play like the one the guy in your game did with his two pair and nut low, because of the uncertainty of knowing/reading every player completely, which is sometimes due to the fact that the turnover of players on-line puts you in a spot to just play straight foward Omaha and not making any fancy plays. I think when you put in alot more hours of this game, Gio, you will find that *most* players will not go that crazy with their low hand even if they hold 2 pair to go along with it.......for the most part from which I have seen is, they will notice when a flush is on the board and will back up and refrain from raising their low. Even if they enter pots with pretty bad holdings, for the most part, they KNOW when not to press 2 pair and just call and/or not bet as much. In the long run, and when everything is evened out.....I think when you know when to release the hand and when to just check and call so you can save bets and/or try to induce another opponent to calling so they can add to your share of the pot with either a weaker low or a weak high....your own results may be better. You seem to have a pretty good understanding already from what I have just read from you so keep playing the game and keep playing those really good starting hands, too! You'll see....when you play "Nut Omaha", you'll show good results, and I think you are already in tune with that so good for you, Gio! Buona fortuna! 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: OMAHA 8 QUESTION, Giocatore, 16. Jul 2003 21:10 | ||
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| 4 POKER, To tell you the truth I never considered folding despite the flush draw on the flop for the simple reason that I was holding A-2-3-4. Therefore, with the board already showing 3-4, I was hoping that an ace or a deuce would hit, nullifying anyone holding A-2, in this case the guy who flopped a wheel draw and top pair. But then again, it was only a 2/4 game, and I guess it's safe to say that at least half the table was just there to have fun, meaning I couldn't really spot any legit player who clearly knew what he was doing. I'll definitely keep your advice in mind. Grazie e buona fortuna. Giocatore | ||
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| Re: OMAHA 8 QUESTION, 4 POKER, 16. Jul 2003 21:26 | ||
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| on 16. Jul 2003 21:10 Giocatore wrote: > 4 POKER, > > To tell you the truth I never considered folding despite the flush draw on the flop for > the simple reason that I was holding A-2-3-4. Therefore, with the board already showing > 3-4, I was hoping that an ace or a deuce would hit, nullifying anyone holding A-2, in this > case the guy who flopped a wheel draw and top pair. But then again, it was only a 2/4 > game, and I guess it's safe to say that at least half the table was just there to have > fun, meaning I couldn't really spot any legit player who clearly knew what he was doing. > I'll definitely keep your advice in mind. Grazie e buona fortuna. > > Giocatore > Hey Gio, I know it's hard sometimes to throw away a hand like that on the flop and I too have called in your spot many times, thus the reason why I am saying this is because I *know* just how unprofitable that draw can really be. If you had just one more opponent in the hand with you,(4 people) your results would have been at least a break-out even one for you. I still think you're going to enjoy the game and show good results.....just keep playing it Gio and be a little bit more aware of the # of players that are calling bets on the flop and when you do start to play with some of them on a more regular basis and have some notion on what kind of starting hands they tend to play.....you'll be able to get a better read on whether or not you should be continuing with your own draw, whether it be the low side draw or the high one as well. If you knew that this guy was going to go nuts when the low hit, I bet you never would have called on the flop! That's why important to have enough of them in there when you are drawing to what seems to be just half the pot. Ciao amico! | ||
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| Re: OMAHA 8 QUESTION, Giocatore, 16. Jul 2003 21:14 | ||
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| Just one more question . . . I'm sure you play Omaha 8 higher than 2/4 and 3/6 on average. Do you routinely encounter such fools who push their nut lows without considering that they're actually losing money, meaning they know they don't have high? | ||
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| Re: OMAHA 8 QUESTION, 4 POKER, 16. Jul 2003 21:33 | ||
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| Good question. Yes, I do play higher limit Omaha when I'm playing in the casino and most players do not get that overly aggresive with a low hand when there are only 3 players in the pot, but EVEN in the lower limits that I tend to play on-line, most of the time, (and I said MOST, LOL) they don't go nuts like the guy in your game did, but you have to take into account that some are more advaned and/or experienced than others, too. That's one of the main reasons why you will observe some strange bets being made....to them, they sound reasonable and correct. Ciao Gio! | ||
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| Re: OMAHA 8 QUESTION, noiseboy, 17. Jul 2003 08:48 | ||
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| Well, the guy knew he had the low covered and probably though he had a slight chance for the high. He might've just had you guys misread and thought you were both on high hands, hard to say. Anyway, I usually don't worry too much about being quartered in O8, in lower limits you usually have enough players in the pot that you won't lose much, unless there is a raising war which does happen from time to time. Your opponents thinking was "I have the nut low, I should ram and jam to try to make my marginal high hold up by folding out other non-nut highs." This is not bad thinking sometimes, in this case he just had you and the third player misread. | ||
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