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Server Time: 11/22/2008 1:06:25 AM PACIFIC |
 Giving away your hand, MozMan, 16. Jul 2003 08:30 | ||
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| I had an interesting hand last night, in which I tried to represent one thing, but the actions of another player blew holes in it for me. Thought it would make some interesting discussion. This may fall under the category of implicit collusion? I'm not sure. Let me know what you think. It's a limit HE tourney at my B&M, and fairly early... maybe 5 or 6 hands into it, blinds 25/50, stakes 50/100. I'm about 2 or 3 right of the button and I'm dealt AhKh. It's folded around to me, and I raise, the button cold-calls 2 bets and the BB calls the second bet. I don't know much about the button except he's on a first name basis with about 4 guys at the table. The BB I see in every tourey there, and I've seen him on several final tables. I've watched him play before and he seems a fairly solid player. The flop comes K52 rainbow. I'm ok with that, top pair top kicker. The BB bets out. Hmm... I think about it, and I figure him for KQ, thinking he has a good kicker. I don't like him for KK or AA because I'm sure he would have reraised me on the blind. Since I have a better kicker, and to try to isolate, I decide to semi-bluff, representing the set of Ks(plausible as I raised the blind). The button again cold calls two bets, not cooperating with my attempt to isolate. This here is the point of my story. By cold calling two bets on the flop, the button has just told the BB that he has a K as well, and in this case that was important information because it turned out that the BB had K5o for 2 pair on the flop, and that call made him certain I was not on a set. He reraised me here, and I knew I was beat. -Moz "The reports of my assimilation are greatly exaggerated." | ||
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| Re: Giving away your hand, 4 POKER, 16. Jul 2003 09:06 | ||
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| Hey Moz, Even if the button did call 2 bets cold, the BB DID bet into on the flop because he thought he held the best hand. IMO, I don't think he was even concerned about the overcall from the button. With a flop of K-5-2, which was raised by you pre-flop, the BB can't assume that you have a set of kings, and when he bets it here and you now raise?.....He may put you on pocket Aces, but he knows that he still has you beat. And you're not as likely to have flopped a set of 5's or 2's either because that isn't the kind of pair that you would normally raise with pre-flop. But with your raise there, he probably could have put you on having a king with a very strong kicker. (like the one you had). I don't think there was any colluding going on, it just may have been a little easier now for the BB to feel that his 2 pair was good after the button overcalled the 2 bets cold. And as far as the semi-bluff? A semi-bluff is when you bet and/or raise on a drawing hand, like a straight or a flush. So your raise on the flop was not a semi-bluff, you flopped top pair with top kicker and that at THAT point is a legitimate hand, one that is made already. Just wanted to explain that, that's all. You played your hand right IMO, you just got a tough break on the flop. BTW, what was the outcome? 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Giving away your hand, MozMan, 16. Jul 2003 09:31 | ||
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| Hey 4- Thanx for the insight, that helps me to understand the game a little better. I have a tendency to think that other people always think like I do... a big failing! :) I called his reraise to see the turn, and so did the button. When he bet out again on the turn and river, we both called him down; a big mistake on both our parts, I think I should have put him on two pair, but I kept thinking he was trying to steamroll me or something. He seemed to have an attitude about players he didn't recognize playing in "his" tourney... and I just could couldn't see him with a 5 or 2 in his hand, very bad read on my part. I don't know what the button had, he mucked at the showdown. I think maybe he was on KQ or KJ... -Moz "The reports of my assimilation are greatly exaggerated." | ||
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| Re: Giving away your hand, shorn, 16. Jul 2003 09:37 | ||
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| Moz- That's a tough one but again illustrates the difference in Tourny play. Once you show aggression and are called (or re-raised in this case) you need to slow down and maybe even muck. I would have called the three-bet on the flop, but if I didn't help on the turn, I would fold to his continued aggression. I know it is tough to lay down top/top, and in a ring game I probably wouldn't. But, in a tourny where the name of the game is survival, you have to do it. BTW, I would have put him on a set, probably 55, when he 3-bet the flop. | ||
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| Re: Giving away your hand, MozMan, 16. Jul 2003 09:44 | ||
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| I agree, I think that was where my mistake was. I should not have been in the hand beyond the turn. I realized that after getting home last night (better late than never; at least it's a situation I will recognize next time). A set of 5s huh? That never even occurred to me. I guess that's another note to make in the journal! :) Thanx for pointing that out. Hindsight is 20/20, but it was a very real possibility that I overlooked. -Moz "The reports of my assimilation are greatly exaggerated." | ||
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| Re: Giving away your hand, 4 POKER, 16. Jul 2003 09:59 | ||
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| Yeah, that's a tough hand to muck, but once you call the turn you're pretty much committed to calling the last bet as well. I probably wouldn't muck it in a heads up situation in a ring game, but I guess I would in a tournament. I agree with shorn and with all that heavy aggression on the flop, I would have mucked it if I showed no improvement on the turn. Thanks for the follow up Moz. and good luck in your next one! | ||
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| Re: Giving away your hand, MozMan, 16. Jul 2003 10:08 | ||
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| Thank you both for helping me work through this one. I had a feeling there were some finer points I was missing. I appreciate the feedback, gents! :) -Moz "The reports of my assimilation are greatly exaggerated." | ||
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| Re: Giving away your hand, 4 POKER, 16. Jul 2003 10:15 | ||
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| on 16. Jul 2003 10:08 MozMan wrote: > Thank you both for helping me work through this one. I had a feeling there were some finer points I > was missing. I appreciate the feedback, gents! :) > > -Moz > > "The reports of my assimilation are greatly exaggerated." Anytime Moz.. | ||
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| Re: Giving away your hand, shorn, 16. Jul 2003 10:41 | ||
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| Not finer points. Just a little extra information to process that will hopefully save you bets down the road. Anytime. | ||
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| Re: Giving away your hand, Mark, 16. Jul 2003 10:26 | ||
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| Hi Moz When your opponent led the flop, I would raise thinking I had the best hand. When he 3-bet, i would then think I'm beat. Depending on the player i would expect to be up against 2 pair, a set, or a bluff, with the remote chance of him having AK also. When faced with his 3-bet on the flop, *IF* you are going to call to the river anyway, why not 4-bet the flop and really find out where you stand? If he has a set he'll lead at the turn, but if he's looking at two pair he'll probably check the turn. This way, you may force out the other caller and get a free card on the turn. If you get bet into on the turn, you can be sure your beat by a big hand and fold, saving 1 and 1/2 big bets. mark | ||
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| Re: Giving away your hand, shorn, 16. Jul 2003 10:40 | ||
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| I like this strategy a lot. If you are going to stay, cap the flop and if he still bets out on the turn, then you can fold with good conscience. | ||
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| Re: Giving away your hand, MozMan, 16. Jul 2003 10:48 | ||
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| Mark- An excellent idea I had not even considered. Something else for me to note. Thanx! I appreciate it. -Moz "The reports of my assimilation are greatly exaggerated." | ||
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| Re: Giving away your hand, Jav, 16. Jul 2003 11:03 | ||
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| I really like this idea. It probably wouldn't occur to me when I'm playing, but you get to put up one more small bet and really get to figure out what kind of hand you're against. | ||
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| Re: Giving away your hand, Mark, 16. Jul 2003 13:28 | ||
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| I'm glad everyone likes this idea, but it is not my own. I just finished reading Roy's Real Poker II ( I started it yesterday and finished it this morning). What a book! So the credit should go to Roy (and everyone else should pick up that book) mark | ||
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| Re: Giving away your hand, MozMan, 16. Jul 2003 11:50 | ||
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| Hey 4- I was thinking more about your analysis of the hand, and have a question for you (or anyone else who wants to comment): Given the situation before the flop: I have AK suited in mid-late position and it's folded around to me; do you think it would be a good play to simply call the blind, rather than raise? That way, if I catch top pair on an uncoordinated board short-handed, I haven't already given away a lot of information about my hand. My thinking is that if I had not raised the blind, then a raise on the flop might have represented a set of 5s or 2s and scared him off... do you think that's good logic, or would it have had little effect on the outcome? -Moz "The reports of my assimilation are greatly exaggerated." | ||
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| Re: Giving away your hand, shorn, 16. Jul 2003 12:00 | ||
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| Moz- Actually, I think the you must raise in this situation pre-flop. You could argue that in a ring game maybe you could limp every once in a while, but in a tournament, there is just too much of a chance to steal to flat call. Furthermore, you let hands that shouldn't call your raise (like K5o) come in for 1 bet or 1/2 a bet that can outdraw you with two small pair. The only spots I would consider limping with AKs in a tournament would be UTG or perhaps middle position if 2 or 3 callers are ahead of me. In these instances, you are looking for a multi-way pot because of the flush possibilities. As for this particular hand, if you limped in, the SB still would have hit his two-pair, so it wouldn't have made a difference. I don't think that you can represent a set because thay hand is so well hidden. And, you got the added benefit of having the SB call your raise (stupidly) with a hand that you dominated. He just happened to have the deck run him over. Steve | ||
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| Re: Giving away your hand, ezcheese, 16. Jul 2003 12:12 | ||
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| Moz, how long have you been playing poker?? Does everyone think as much as you do when you're playing?? I.E. ok the button just called and gave away that I can't be on KK?? I don't realize the effect of everyone else's bettin on my own... mainly because I only play small house games with friends and a few stupid rules... but I am loving this learning experience you all are giving me. | ||
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| Re: Giving away your hand, MozMan, 16. Jul 2003 12:20 | ||
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| I played for the first time in February, this year. I try to be aware of what others are thinking, but more so in a situation like this where I think there are a lot of solid players. When I play low limit ring games, I can usually rule out most of the people at the table (based on how I see them play) from thinking about anything more than their own hands. In a typical 3-6 game at my casino, there is usually no more than one or two players at the table at given time that I have to pay attention to like that. There is a drawback though. I often get caught up in it and find myself over-thinking the game, and shooting myself in the foot as a result. Many times I have to take a break and regroup. Sometimes I force myself to play for an orbit super-tight while ignoring all the other players to try to pull away from that, too. -Moz "The reports of my assimilation are greatly exaggerated." | ||
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| Re: Giving away your hand, MozMan, 16. Jul 2003 12:14 | ||
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| Very good points. Thanx. You've picked up on something important, I play a lot of ring games and not so many tournaments... so it's probably obvious that I keep thinking in those terms. This is the 2nd time I've tried my hand at this particular tourney (they run it every Tuesday and the last Saturday of every second month, alternating with a NL tourney) and one thing I noticed both times: drawing hands are almost useless, as almost all flops are either heads-up or 3-way. In the hour or so that I played last night, there were only 5 or 6 hands that saw more than 3 players on the flop. -Moz "The reports of my assimilation are greatly exaggerated." | ||
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| Re: Giving away your hand, shorn, 16. Jul 2003 12:23 | ||
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| No problem. Glad to help. If you want to get more involved in tournament play/theory, I would suggest Sklansky's tourny book. I am on my third read through and it has helped me modify my ring game tendencies for tournaments. I think you would really learn a lot from it. | ||
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| Re: Giving away your hand, MozMan, 16. Jul 2003 12:25 | ||
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| Cool! I still have an unused Border's gift certificate from my brithday. That will be a good use for it; especially since I'd like to play these tourneys more often. -Moz "The reports of my assimilation are greatly exaggerated." | ||
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| Re: Giving away your hand, mdf, 16. Jul 2003 12:35 | ||
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| Moz, I agree with shorn, if there are 2 or 3 callers ahead of me I limp with AK if I have a chance to steal the blinds I raise. To keep myself from marrying AK, I tell myself that if it gets as far as the flop that my hand most likely needs to improve to win and to watch other's play carefully to make sure that I am not beat. With AK if you are in the pot with more than one other player chances are you have to improve to win. | ||
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| Re: Giving away your hand, 4 POKER, 16. Jul 2003 12:35 | ||
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| Hey Moz, I really agree with shorn here but I really don't have experience with N/L and wouldn't want to give you the advice that I may use in ring games, but I still think I would raised with it pre-flop unless of course it was really late in the tournament and there was already a raise by a chip leader and a small stack. Then, I may let the hand go all together and not even get involved. What do you think about that Moz? Shorn? I'm interested in the opinions of the more experienced N/L players, too, so any feedback would be good for me as well. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Giving away your hand, shorn, 16. Jul 2003 12:45 | ||
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| 4P- I am pretty sure this was a limit event, but your application to NL is right on. AK is not the hand you want to be calling with in NL and certainly not if the raise came from a big stack because they can break you. If it comes from a small stack, a call is still debateable depending on the amount and where it will put you if you lose. In my book, I want to be the one raising with AK, not the one calling with it. And, depending on what point you are in the tourny, it is definitely a hand that could (and should) be mucked. Steve | ||
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| Re: Giving away your hand, 4 POKER, 16. Jul 2003 12:54 | ||
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| That's right, it was limit! Yeah, I would have raised with AK as well. Thanks shorn and BTW.....don't you work? LOL. Or are you a PRO now? Hmmm, I'm starting to worry, uh, I mean wonder about that now. Your advice and your approach to the game is something I admire....I think I told you that once before!!! anyway.... stay the hell out of my games! 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Giving away your hand, shorn, 16. Jul 2003 13:33 | ||
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| No worries. I do work, but have a little spare time each day to read and post. No, I am no pro player and don't think i will be anytime soon. Your games are safe from me except for the occasiional foray into 15/30 at Party! Thanks for the go stroke though... Steve | ||
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| Re: Giving away your hand, MozMan, 16. Jul 2003 13:01 | ||
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| Yeah, it was limit. NL can actually be a little easier in a case like this, because if a raise into you is LARGE it's much easier to justify the muck, I think (all else being equal). I find I have to keep reminding myself why this holding is called 'Big Slick,' because it's a powerful hand ('Big') but very slippery ('Slick'). I think probably the overall best play, of all tha we discussed, was the suggestion to cap the flop (I think it was Mark that said that?) because it buys the most information and saves the most bets in the long haul. -Moz "The reports of my assimilation are greatly exaggerated." | ||
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| Re: Giving away your hand, 4 POKER, 16. Jul 2003 13:20 | ||
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| Hey Moz, when I responded to your post, believe me, I knew you had said it was limit and responded as such, I just got a mental block for a minute there and thought it was N/L. Geez, I do need to sleep. LOL! nite all...........zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz | ||
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| Re: Giving away your hand, MozMan, 16. Jul 2003 13:22 | ||
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| LOL! Yeah, that's what I thought. Well, it should make studioh feel better, he did the same last week on a couple different threads. Now he knows he is in excellent company (as are you!). -Moz "The reports of my assimilation are greatly exaggerated." | ||
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| Re: Giving away your hand, 4 POKER, 16. Jul 2003 13:27 | ||
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| I really MUST SLEEP NOW!! LOL! Just wanted to say thanks for that last comment there. You're pretty cool Moz. Dave | ||
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| Re: Giving away your hand, ezcheese, 16. Jul 2003 13:53 | ||
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| I don't understand why there is so much folding of AK... besides pairs, obviously, this is the best hand you can have (if suited)... so why fold it? chances of other people having poket K's, Q's, J's are all low... Sorry I'm retarded and I havne't played in a tourney before... but it just seems like AK (especially suited) isn't a hand you want to be folding before the flop? | ||
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| Re: Giving away your hand, MozMan, 16. Jul 2003 14:10 | ||
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| It is an excellent hand, but not all by itself. AK, suited or not, needs the cooperation of the board to be effective. So, in a NL situation, if you have a very large all-in bet into you, chances are that player aleady has a pair and you are a slight dog to win the hand. It's a gamble at best. At worst, that player has AA and you're practically drawing dead. -Moz "The reports of my assimilation are greatly exaggerated." | ||
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| Re: Giving away your hand, ezcheese, 16. Jul 2003 14:22 | ||
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| This is true, but say the player has QQ or below, so all you need to do is hit your A or your K to be a winner... What are your odds of hitting? and what %% underdog are you at the beginning? Would you say AK holds up better in a ring game or tourney situation? multi-way pot or heads up? | ||
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| Re: Giving away your hand, MozMan, 16. Jul 2003 15:16 | ||
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| Qs down it's a crapshoot. I don't know the exact numbers, but you're a dog something like 49% ot 51% I think... Look at it this way, if he has 22 and you have AK, he already has a pair and you don't. You are about 2:1 against catching either an A or a K, but calling his all-in bet (assuming you have less chips) is only laying you 1:1. I think this hand plays better in ring games. If it's suited, it plays well in a multi-way pot for the flush potential, suited or not, it also plays well in a short-handed pot because the cards are big. -Moz "The reports of my assimilation are greatly exaggerated." | ||
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| Re: Giving away your hand, Mark, 16. Jul 2003 13:36 | ||
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| it really depends on the texture of the game, but generally you should raise. You would only not raise if you wanted to trap 1 (maybe 2 )opponents. But AK is not a great traping hand as you also need to hit something to show the hand down. So to trap with the hand you need to have an opponent who will bet or call with a weak to pair or call you down with a lesser hand. (this also takes away any chance of bluffing if you don't hit - a catch 22) If your opponent won't call with draws and weak pairs headsup against you, there is no point in trapping. mark | ||
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