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Server Time: 3/17/2010 3:50:32 PM PACIFIC |
 How would you play this hand?, Ron, 15. Jul 2003 11:11 | ||
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| How would you play this hand and tell me what you think about how I played it. I'm in early position (1st after the flop). The raising is capped pre-flop. I have QQ. The flop comes 7KK (rainbow). I came out betting & both players behind me called. Then a 3 came on the turn (no suits). I checked, to see where the other two were at. The guy in the middle position bet & the third player called. After the call, I have to believe one has a K so I fold. A queen comes on the river (which didn't change the outcome). The guy who bet the turn had A5 & the caller had AQ. Oh, and I know nothing about these players. Would you have been aggressive & continued to bet out, call or fold the way I did. Obviously, hind sight is 20-20 & I have a monster. What do you think? Thanks. | ||
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| Re: How would you play this hand?, shorn, 15. Jul 2003 11:20 | ||
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| I think you played the hand well. Generally, with a capped pre-flop hand like QQ, you are better off betting it out to find out where you stand on the off chance that your hand is good (particularly against only two opponents). If you are raised on the flop, then you can safely assume your hand is no good and fold. If you are called, then you need to proceed very cautiously on the next round if you don't help. Another reason for betting the flop is that with 2 Kings on the board, it is less likely that one of your opponents has one in their hand. Also, depending on the opponent, you may get them to lay down AA by betting out (representing a King) which is obviously to your advantage. Now when you are called, you definitely need to fear someone slowplaying a King. Checking the turn is your best play because you are most likely beaten. Now when 1 player bets and the other calls, I think you have to fold. With a pre-flop cap, there is just too biug a chance that the bettor has AK and the caler has something like AA. Yes, you saw that these losers both had worse hands than you did. DON"T LET THAT AFFECT YOU. Make correct decisions based on the incomplete information that you have at the time and you will be fine. If you play that hand 100 times over, 97 times out of 100 you would lose it if you called. | ||
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| Re: How would you play this hand?, Jav, 15. Jul 2003 11:32 | ||
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| Since the raising was capped pre-flop, this is definately an interesting hand. Who capped the raising? Was it you or one of the other players? I might have saw this hand through to the river, but it would depend on my read of the other players. I suspect that you bet the flop to get information or to take the pot right then. I would hope that any weak K's were folded in the preflop raising, and mostly be worried about AK, AA, or KQ (and there's always KK). Since no-one raised on the your flop bet, I might have checked and called to the river, or folded as you did if I thought one of the players was capable of slowplaying a K. But since no Ace came on the turn, you might believe your Q's are good... | ||
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| Re: How would you play this hand?, mongi, 15. Jul 2003 11:40 | ||
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| You were correct to bet the flop. When you get called by the other two players it is understandable to be concerned that one of them has a king. However, checking the turn is not the way to see were the other players are at. Your check simply gives them the go ahead to steal the pot. If one of them had pocket AA they probably ,although not always would have raised on the flop. In situations were the preflop betting was capped you will see that many people will call for one small bet on the flop. I would bet again on the turn and probably throw the hand away if I was raised. Although it is good to know your opponent well in situations like this; he could be stealing from you thinking that you wouldn't have bet the flop with a King in your hand with a rainbow flop like this. | ||
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| Re: How would you play this hand?, Tim C, 15. Jul 2003 11:42 | ||
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| Ron if the betting is capped preflop and the flop is 7 K K I would have mucked with out a second thought. One of the raisers should have AA AK or KK unless they are realy loose or on something. So your QQs are toast | ||
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| Re: How would you play this hand?, Wren, 15. Jul 2003 11:47 | ||
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| Well, you didn't give us any info about the game (eg is it online? B&M?) If this is a very low limit online game, players often make very stupid plays, and love to gamble w/ just about anything. If this is the case, I would definitely not lay QQ down on this board. I'd have to "wonder" about the possibiliy of one of the players having AK, KK or AA, and lord knows online players LOVE to slowplay trips (I've never seen so many BAD delayed checkraises by players thinking they're being tricky than at online microlimit tables), but I'm not going to lay down unreasonably. A bet & call on the turn by no means implies that one of the other players has a K. Furthermore, the pot is big because of the capped action preflop. I think the best play is to check/call this one down. Look at it this way - if someone has a K, you're pretty much cooked. However, if someone DOESN'T have a K, which is probably the more likely scenario, you're good, and by playing passively, you might induce your opponent(s) to bluff. And it isn't too dangerous for you to give free cards, as you're really only worried about an A coming off. on 15. Jul 2003 11:11 Ron wrote: > How would you play this hand and tell me what you think about how I played it. > > > I'm in early position (1st after the flop). The raising is capped pre-flop. I > have QQ. The flop comes 7KK (rainbow). I came out betting & both players behind > me called. Then a 3 came on the turn (no suits). I checked, to see where the > other two were at. The guy in the middle position bet & the third player called. > After the call, I have to believe one has a K so I fold. A queen comes on the > river (which didn't change the outcome). The guy who bet the turn had A5 & the > caller had AQ. > > Oh, and I know nothing about these players. > > Would you have been aggressive & continued to bet out, call or fold the way I > did. Obviously, hind sight is 20-20 & I have a monster. > > What do you think? > > Thanks. | ||
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| Re: How would you play this hand?, mongi, 15. Jul 2003 12:32 | ||
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| Because the pot is big is the exact reason I believe you should bet the turn. By betting you give yourself the chance to win the pot now. If someone has a King you will probably here from them now. In this case you can save one big bet by folding. If they just smooth call you with the King then you can check call the river for the same price as check calling from the turn onward. betting the turn: gives you the chance to save a big bet, win the pot now, not give your opponent the chance to hit an Ace to outdraw you. If there were more callers then I believe check-calling would be the right play. | ||
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| Re: How would you play this hand?, Wren, 15. Jul 2003 12:39 | ||
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| But the proble with this is that, in the scenario I'm thinking of (maniacal, microlimit online game), if you bet and get raised, then what? You STILL don't know whether your opponent has a K, but you're not going to feel good calling him/her down at this point either. In a more "solid" scenario, I agree that betting out again is the best play. If you get raised by a more-or-less competent opponent, you can feel pretty good about getting out. | ||
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| Re: How would you play this hand?, mongi, 15. Jul 2003 12:47 | ||
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| In the original post I didn't see him mention the limit he was playing at. I have never played at the micro-levels so perhaps that is a different ball game. | ||
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| Re: How would you play this hand?, PairTheBoard, 15. Jul 2003 13:12 | ||
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| The player with A5 in for a capped preflop who calls on the flop and turn with that board is pretty strong evidence of a low limit type game. There are players in some of these games who will call just for the chance to bluff at the pot later. In games like this I increase my frequency for shifting into check-call mode. A lot of hands that are stone folds in tough higher limit games become very profitable for check-calling in the lower limits, especially games with over agressive players. | ||
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| Re: How would you play this hand?, Wren, 15. Jul 2003 13:22 | ||
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| Yup. That's precisely what I was thinking. | ||
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| Re: How would you play this hand?, shorn, 15. Jul 2003 13:34 | ||
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| While this may be true, I think long run check/calling in these games is a -EV play, especially in a capped pot like this where the likelihood of someone being ahead of you is high. Checking and calling is rarely correct strategy in hold'em unless you KNOW you are against complete maniacs. Now, if this had been the third pot in which Ron had seen this type of behavior and they had shown down shite on the other two, different story. But, as a oure matter of this hand specifically, I think you fold the turn because of the CALLER. The bettor I am less concerned about. You have to ask yourself, what two hands could they hold that you can beat AND they would call with? OK, AQ I give you. What is the second hand? | ||
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| Re: How would you play this hand?, DallasPokerFan, 15. Jul 2003 13:35 | ||
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| Hmm .. there's an old poker adage that says, don't be afraid of what can beat you. From the betting, it doesn't *sound* like any of the players were representing Kx, since they didn't raise after the flop .. in light of all the raises before the flop. I personally, would've stayed with it for one BB, just for pot odds, but that doesn't mean I wouldv'e made the right decision. Part of me even thinks I might have raised on the turn. With Kx in my hand, I have folded (on the turn) with a KQQ flop before, just because I got scared out (flush draw). I would've won had I stayed, but I got out-played. All in, KKQQ as you had it was well-disguised and left only one hole-pair or board card to beat it .. outside of a K. Now that I think about it, all those raises with a Kx in the hole might've been another clue .. admittedly, it's a 20-20 hindsight thought, though. | ||
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| Re: How would you play this hand?, Scrubbie, 15. Jul 2003 17:08 | ||
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| Poker is not about a single event (as in, Boy do i feel lucky, I am going to call with a 7-2 this time), but rather how well the 7-2 plays over the long run. I think more emphasis needs to be placed on "shorns" point about how 97 out of 100 times you will loose in this situation. If the game was typical (meaning, there was no reason you had to believe either of these guys/gals were making a move) then the correct move would be to fold. That said .... I would say that you NEEDED to make a "note to self" so that when you end up heads up with them next time, you will "KNOW" they are not "typical" and you should adjust your play. You can only "hope" they continue to play like that. Wait till you have top pair, and "punish them". (fire, fire, yea, yea) Scrubbie "Poker is like law, you don't want it to go to trial" | ||
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| Re: How would you play this hand?, chasepoker, 15. Jul 2003 18:18 | ||
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| I think i would have bet the turn again and then fold to a re-raise or check call the river. I only say this as i had a similar thing happen to me the other day on line in a $2-4 and i folded a similar hand when there was already a largish pot ( about 10 BB ). I think the lesson one can learn from situations like this is that it is better to call one bet and lose it than to fold and lose about 10 BB. Of course this is different i guess at higher limits where you might have to respect the other players a little more, as i have read time and time again it is better to loose one BB by calling a large pot than to lose 10BB by not calling ! But of course this does not mean you always call in big pots i think Slansky puts it better than me in the Theory of Poker so take a look at that book ! Chasepoker | ||
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| Re: How would you play this hand?, wolvish, 16. Jul 2003 06:56 | ||
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| If any of you have played the low limit tables on the net then you should know that folding QQ after being capped pre-flop with a 7kk is a huge mistake. Betting on the flop was a great move, and since you had mere callers, I would have definetely bet the turn. Even if I was raised on the turn in this situation pot odds and the fact that most low limit online players will raise to 4 with pocket 9s would have kept me in this one. Plus in my experience there isnt a lot of capping going on with AK or KQ. The only hands I would be worried about would be pocket Aces, Kings or Sevens. However, like I just said, low limit players could have anything. You will never lose this hand 97 out of 100 times. Now higher limit is a different game. But Ron, if you're in the low limits like me, you need to be betting this hand for value. wolvish | ||
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| Re: How would you play this hand?, shorn, 16. Jul 2003 07:07 | ||
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| I disagree. Unless you really know the players you are playing against, I think this hand is a money loser long run. We all tend to remember the "one's we would have won if we had stayed in", but forget all those times (or try to) that we called to the river when we knew we were beaten but talked ourselves into calling anyway. Hey, I am not saying that you should never call and if you know the game/players at the table, by all means take advantage. But, I stick by my assertion that this type of call is what makes most players long run losers (and yes, I have played a lot of 5-10 and 3/6 online). | ||
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| Re: How would you play this hand?, 4 POKER, 16. Jul 2003 07:43 | ||
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| I'm not crazy about holding Q-Q with that board either. Whether you know your opponents or not...with a capped betting pre-flop, a King is a very dangerous card to come up. Of course you can't always assume the worst just because there's an overcard to your pocket pair, but with a capped bet, once you lead at that kind of flop and the guy next to you calls and then gets an OVERCALL by somebody else?......I think you have to be extremely hesitant about taking this holding any further. Heads up may be a little bit different, but when you get the 3rd party to call your bet, EVEN if you decide to just use the check and call play....if they hold a king your beat. I happen to use that type of play quite often against a very aggresive player but I tend to use that play in a heads up situation more....but with 3 or 4 players in the hand, it's just not the right play to use. Either you have the best hand and now you're letting the remaining players to beat you by not making them pay too much or you're not in the lead in the first place, and that will leave you with no control over the hand whatsoever IMO. Another point to bring up....what happens if you do bet or just call now and an Ace falls on the river? would you (anyone) call now? I know this is the worst senerio, but if you feel hesitant during the hand, there's a good chance that your holding is no good. I wouldn't let it get to me if I threw away a winner every now and then...it happens to players who play well, but that is all made up in the long run anyway. I'm not saying that you should always throw your hand away with that flop, but I would keep track of all the pots that I have won with the 2 Q's as opposed to the ones that I have lost as well and see if there was a profit. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: How would you play this hand?, shorn, 16. Jul 2003 07:59 | ||
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| That was my point too. The overcaller is the one to worry about...what the hell could he have that you can beat? I don't think you even have to keep track of pots won/lost. You will definitely lose more $$ check/calling with QQ against that board and 2 opponents than you win. As you pointed out, if you don't fold the winner every oince in a while, you are calling way way too often (and are therefore probably a fish). | ||
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| Re: How would you play this hand?, mongi, 16. Jul 2003 11:23 | ||
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| I think it really comes down to who you are playing against and who was doing the raising and reraising before the flop. I also think this is one of those hands where you have to be there to more accurately diagnose the situation. In most situations I believe betting the turn is the best play. I think the pot is too big just to give up on it. I would only check-call if I was playing against tricky aggressive opponents. Just because the betting was capped pre-flop doesn't mean you are against monster hands. Many times you will see suited connectors, low pocket pairs, even dominated hands like QT QJ etc. who got caught in the middle of some raises or they may have been the reraisers or cappers figuring it will only cost them one more bet to add a little deception to their game. Only if I was in the hand with a couple of rocks would I consider check folding. If I was raised on the turn, I would dump the hand. This hand is not worth investing anymore money after this happens. | ||
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| Re: How would you play this hand?, 4 POKER, 16. Jul 2003 12:22 | ||
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| ......You not wanting to let the hand go because you may have the best hand is one thing and I agree with that AND the part about players who will call capped bets with various of holdings,but, you stated that you would take the approach of betting the turn as well and if someone raised you now, you would fold. But what if someone did have a king and chose not to raise you or bet into you until the river? They very well could have flopped and/or turned a full house with a different pocket pair (forget about the 2 K's)....so then what would be your play here? Would you still bet the river if noone had raised you on the turn and/or would you call a bet on the river if someone lead into you? Not all players raise their hands on the turn although it is a very typical type of play. And because of that, you will still be losing a considerable amount if they decided not to make a move until the last card because if you bet out on the turn, I would have to assume that you would make the call on the river if someone bet....you'd have to because the pot would be too big not to and that is why I feel that *sometimes* you have to save those big bets and let it go on the turn....not always, but many of the times. Another point is....if you bet the turn and get raised, that too could just be a bluff raise by one of your opponents who is capable of that type of play, so you may not be getting an accurate read on him thus for mucking the best hand AND if the hand was multi-way (in which it was), you shouldn't be using the check and call play either. That's what I'm trying to explain here.....But that's just MO so if we disagree that's ok. I don't play my hand the same way all the time, I just play alot of poker in "live" poker rooms where I can get a much clearer read on my opponents because I'm so used to playing against most of them. I'm not saying that you should always fold your hand with that board, but whenever you feel hesitant, many times there's good reasons for it as well. I think the check call play works well against an aggressive opponent but it does not work well when the pot is multi-way for the simple reason that you would be giving up way too much by allowing the other players to see the last card for a cheap price AND you would not be able to gain some of the more valuable information that may be needed for you to make a more accurate decision on whether you should be folding or not here because the player who very well would have raised you on the turn had you bet, is now faced with just betting the hand himself because you chose to use the check and call approach, thus leaving you or whoever wasting extra bets. I understand what you're saying, I was simply just giving my opinions on the subject and what has worked the best for me and in which I have seemed to profit the most from over the course of time, that's all. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: How would you play this hand?, shorn, 16. Jul 2003 12:30 | ||
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| I think the sticking points for me is the fact that the pot is multi-way AND there is a caller on the turn. If you were heads up, then i think check calling to the river is more appropriate because someone is likely to bluff with AQs (especially if he was the capper) on this board. However, with the middle player betting into potentially not 1, but two raises (after you check), the pot is said to be "protected". It is a rare (or really stupid) player that would bluff in this spot. Add this to the fact that the guy behind him called and IMO your QQ adds up to a hill of beans most of the time. Granted, in this case it was the winner. And if you play with the same two jokers all the time, then you can adjust your play. BUT, if you talk yourself into too many calls like this against all competition, over the long run you will need to play two extra hours each session to make up what youhave lost. | ||
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| How would you play this hand? 2, donrhem, 16. Jul 2003 12:52 | ||
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| Here is what happened to me last weekend at my local B&M (15/30). I am in the BB, UTG fold as do the next two, next raises, everyone folds to the SB who calls. Flop comes KKA non-suited. The raiser checks and so does the SB and myself. The turn is a 4. Raiser bets, SB folds and I re-raise and I am called. River is a Q, raiser checks and I think a minute and bet and I am called. I show my hand and the Raiser says that is the last time I slow play my hand and gives me the pot. I have played with this guy for over a year and know him well. Now, what did I have and what do you think he had? Before I tell you what we had here is what I was thinking. When he didn't bet the flop I knew it was either a trap (set or full house) or he raised pre flop on JJ, TT or AJ/Ts. When he bet the turn and the SB folded I raised to find out if it was a trap. He would 99% of the time raise back if his hand was made. Again, when he checked he wouldn't do that at that point since I would only call if I had the winner. OK, I had pocket 4's. He didn't show his hand. I know this is long but what I am trying to get across is the re-raise I made gave me the information I needed to bet and raise. Don PS. I know the Q on the river could have made his hand but... | ||
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| Re: How would you play this hand?, PairTheBoard, 16. Jul 2003 14:15 | ||
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| What a great thread. Some of the advice has encourgaged me to make some of the good lay downs I need to make but find hard to do in the games I've been playing. Not sure what the lesson is here, but this hand sure suprised me. I was in the BB with Jh5h. Normally I would muck this against a raise, but there were 3 new players coming in, all contributing blinds. The button raised and I thought, what the heck - with all that dead money my hand is probably about as good as anybody's. I called along with everyone else. Flop came K1010 with two hearts. It's bet in early position, everyone calls and the button raises. I'm knowing it's a mistake to call - drawing for the nonnut flush for two bets with the board paired - but the pot is getting big and I figure what the heck and call it. Turn comes a Jack. I figure somebody's Full by now. Early postion checks, button bets and I think - oh well if hearts are no good maybe another Jack will come - so I call. Early postion raises! Everybody is still calling - it gets around to me and the pot is so big I can't help but put in another call. River card is a complete blank. I'm all set to hit my Fold button against any bet. I check and a split second later Party Poker is pushing the pot to me! Everybody must have hit their autocheck and my pair of Jacks took down the biggest pot I'd seen in days. LOL Seems like sometimes my worst plays win the most money. My turn to get lucky I guess. | ||
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| Re: How would you play this hand?, JohnT, 17. Jul 2003 13:23 | ||
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| I'm new to the forum and just starting out in the world of Texas HE. I've been playing the .5/1 tables at party. The other night I was in MP and was dealt an AKo. Nobody raises pre-flop. The flop comes A-K-Q rainbow. I'm rather excited since I hold top 2 pair. Since nobody raised on the flop I'm figuring no one holds AA, KK, QQ. The round is checked to me and I bet. No one raises so I'm thinking that JT is not likely at this point. The turn showed a 7. I'm smiling with glee as play is checked to me again. I bet. Some call, some fold. There are two other players besides me at this point and I'm in the middle. The river turns another 7 and the blood runs out of my face. I'm just staring at the screen. The guy in front of me checks. I bet, the guy after me raises, the first guy re-raises and it's back to me. I figure one of them has a friggin 7 so I call ( I know, I know. ) The guy after me takes the last raise and I call again. This hand is turning into a mini-tilt mode. The showdown comes and to my surprise the pile is moved to me. I was in such shock that I could feel the blood rushing to my head. I damn near felt embarrassed. The other guys that were raising only had the board's 7's as their high hands. The correct thing, I believe, would have been to drop after it was raised twice. But like a true fish, I was totally captivated by my hand I couldn't make myself relinquish it. Other than a stone bluff I can't figure what the other guys were doing. Anyway, enjoy the heck out of reading this board. | ||
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