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Server Time: 2/13/2012 3:10:37 PM PACIFIC |
 Reading your opponents..., ezcheese, 15. Jul 2003 10:52 | ||
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| Ok guys here is a question I hope you can help me with and might spark a good thread... I have heard a lot about reading your opponents being the most important aspect to poker... like in rounders when he says that he doesn't even need to see his cards to win... and when he reads what every player has at the lawyer card game... Well my question is how do i do this?? I know about looking for tells and betting patterns... but I just can't seem to pick up anything. Granted, I play low limit house games with a group of friends who will see every possible flop... but when the betting really starts I can't pick up on them... I'm trying really hard and maybe I just don't know what to look for?? Could you guys please help me by letting me know what to look for, how to look for it, and anything else you could say. On the same note, should I invest they money and buy Caro's Book of Tells? | ||
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| Re: Reading your opponents..., mongi, 15. Jul 2003 12:02 | ||
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| reliable tells at the low limits are few and far between. There is one player who will yawn when he is betting a draw and keep his mouth closed when he has a made hand. This has been 100% reliable for me. I have another one just like this. When the player is betting a draw he will put his chips out and then tap to the right of them. When he has a made hand he will put his chips out then slowly pull his hand back without the tap. Even if you think you have found a tell it may not be reliable so be careful. Here are a couple things I have noticed. 1) When a player say's "steam raise" after he raises he typically has a big hand. 2) When a player say's "I'll bet" but usually doesn't say anything when he bets; he may be bluffing. Just pay attention to everything and with experience you'll start to notice things out of the ordinary. good luck. | ||
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| Re: Reading your opponents..., ezcheese, 15. Jul 2003 12:09 | ||
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| thank you for your advice... just your small list will add to things im gonna look for... how long did it take you to find these tells??? by how long I mean how many times did you play w/ these particular people as well as how long you had been playing poker in general to be able to pick up on them. | ||
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| Re: Reading your opponents..., Wren, 15. Jul 2003 12:27 | ||
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| Yeah, invest the money & get book of tells. However, don't focus all (or even a big part of) your energy on picking up tells. It's much more important to play your cards correctly. Being able to spot tells is kind of an "add-on" to correct play (for example, I *should* do this here, but I KNOW this player is on such-and-such a hand, so I'll do this instead). I find that picking up tells just kind of happes naturally when I'm playing well, feeling confident , relaxed & focused, etc. It isn't something that you should be straining to do. | ||
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| Re: Reading your opponents..., 4 POKER, 16. Jul 2003 06:26 | ||
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| Great post Wren. | ||
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| Re: Reading your opponents..., Mark, 15. Jul 2003 13:39 | ||
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| Yes, get the tells book, it will definately help with the low limit games. But a bigger part of reading people than tells, is the ability to put them on a hand. To do this, you need to watch how they play what they play. Roy Cooke's Real Poker II is great for this. By following his thought process he shows you how to put people on hands. To start at home, in your next game pick one player (only one) and watch every hand he plays. Keep trying to guess what he has by his checking, betting, and calling. Start off by putting the player on a LARGE number of possible hands. This will help you to see how he plays his cards. When you start to realize HOW he plays, start trying to narrow down what his hand could be to a select few hands. Notice what he plays and what he folds, what he raises and check-raises with. Does he bet draws or is he a calling station? Phil Helmuth is so good at this he can guess opponents exact two hole cards alot of the time. By the end of the night, you should be able to tell what he has in most hands (unless he is a smart-tricky player who uses alot of deception). Also, try to categorize the player as loose, tight, passive, aggressive, deceptive, straightforward, calling station, etc. Once you have him categorized, play him accordingly. If he bets everything, call him down. If he only bets the nuts, you can make an easy fold, etc. (Caro's books have alot more on this) mark | ||
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| Re: Reading your opponents..., beigs, 15. Jul 2003 14:57 | ||
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| Daniel Negraneu has a good article about the overhyped importance of detecting tells. http://www.cardplayer.com/?sec=afeature&art_id=13375 | ||
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| Re: Reading your opponents..., Scrubbie, 15. Jul 2003 17:21 | ||
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| What you saw in "Rounders" was more of "deducing" process, rather then a "tell" situation. Mark had very good comments above about using "deductive reasoning" to figure out one's hand! Do you understand what I mean here when I say "deductive reasoning"? It will help you more by trying to "deduce" what a player has, than trying to figure out if his finger is in his nose cause he is bluffing, or if he really has a buger. Seriously, though ... choose one player everytime you play. Start with someone easy, like a rock. (Don't choose the tricky players at first) You should start to see a rhythm to his/her game. THEN ... based on the cards on the board, his/her bets (raises and/or calls) leading up the river ... you should be able to "deduce" what they hold down to a couple of starting hands. Within time, you should be able to do it in your sleep!!! Scrubbie "Poker is like law, you don't want it to go to trial" | ||
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| Re: Reading your opponents..., PairTheBoard, 16. Jul 2003 00:44 | ||
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| People can get pretty tricky with their acts sometimes. They can do double reverse strong when strong acts to induce calls and subtle variations with a mixture of strong and weak moves at the same time that can be very confusing. Some guys, though maybe not the best players around, are crafty con artists. By reading their tells you may end up finding yourself manipulated. Both with tells and the rest of the game, most of what you read is fairly elementary and widely known to all but the most novice of players. Your poker degree must be earned with experience at the tables. When someone makes a suspicious bet and smiles at me I usually call them down though. | ||
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| Re: Reading your opponents..., shorn, 16. Jul 2003 05:54 | ||
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| I have doen some thinking on this recently and I think that tells have lost some of their importance with the explosion of new players out there. Some of them have no idea how to play hands, what hands to play, and even if they HAVE a big hand. Therefore, trying to study patterns of bodily behavior is much more fruitless than it used to be. I think the name of the game today (at least in lower limits 5/10 and below) is to simply play your cards correctly at all times and adjust play based on what others are showing down. The KK8 example in the other thread is a great example of this: the first time you are in a capped pot with QQ and this board comes and the others continue to show strength, you muck. Probably the second time too. BUT, if you consistently see them show down AQ and other crap hands, THEN you adjust your play. This is not a tell...rather, it is modifying your play based on your experience with particular players. I find this to be much more reliable in today's crazier games. | ||
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| Re: Reading your opponents..., Mark, 16. Jul 2003 10:38 | ||
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| I disagree about the importance of tells in the lower limit game ($5-10 B&M). I took me a little while to understand what i was looking for, but eventually I was able to find alot of tells in these lower limit games. The most prevelent i found was the staring at the flop. When a player stared (the longer the stare the more strong the tell) at the flop and check, he is weak. When he stares at the flop and bets, he has a weak betting hand (like weak top pair). it has taken me even longer to understand the forcefulness of betting tell. There are alot more i've picked up on begining players, but i has taken alot of study and patience. Have a good read on just one opponent can make or break a session. I had one session a while back in which i had a few very solid tells on one player. Whenever he was in a pot i knew his exact strenght. Having a tell on that one player made me about 10 BB ( he also liked to call too much), and made an otherwise break even session a winning one. I agree that stradegy and hand reading is more important than tells, but tells can be very strong and add alot to a players hourly rate. mark | ||
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| Re: Reading your opponents..., ezcheese, 16. Jul 2003 12:16 | ||
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| So how many sessions have you guys played with these people to see the tells?? or can you pick them up fast?? And since tells aren't of the utmost importance... how long does it normally take you to "read" a player? | ||
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| Re: Reading your opponents..., Mark, 16. Jul 2003 13:44 | ||
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| Most of the Tells i pick up, i do so pretty quickly. The player i mentioned above, i only played against once. Some things are quite common (like the flop stare i mentioned above) and those common tells are what i look for. Sometimes i'll notice something after a few hours of play and sometimes i don't pick up anything. The more i play with the same people, the more time i put into trying to read their hands. If i had to guess, i would say I get about 60-70% of my tells immediately or in the first session i play with an opponent. If i don't pick something up immediately (or very quickly), it usually takes a while. But i usually pick up a tell on one or two players every session ( at the low limits) Mark | ||
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| Re: Reading your opponents..., EC, 16. Jul 2003 17:31 | ||
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| Mark, Your posts on this and other stuff have been some of the most perceptive I've seen. Regarding the tell of staring at the flop- would you put a player who stares and then check-calls as more likely to be on a draw, since the very act of staring too long at a flop might mean they're trying to figure out, literally, if they have a hand? Psychologically, is it sort of a question of having a marginal hand and staring long "hoping" something makes them a hand? Clearly this example reflects a weak player, but do you see this tell in better than weak players? Does any of that make sense? Thanks Eli on 16. Jul 2003 13:44 Mark wrote: > Most of the Tells i pick up, i do so pretty quickly. The player i mentioned above, i only played > against once. Some things are quite common (like the flop stare i mentioned above) and those > common tells are what i look for. > > Sometimes i'll notice something after a few hours of play and sometimes i don't pick up anything. > The more i play with the same people, the more time i put into trying to read their hands. > > If i had to guess, i would say I get about 60-70% of my tells immediately or in the first session i > play with an opponent. If i don't pick something up immediately (or very quickly), it usually takes > a while. > > But i usually pick up a tell on one or two players every session ( at the low limits) > > Mark | ||
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| Re: Reading your opponents..., Slate, 21. Jul 2003 08:59 | ||
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| Reading players is a tough business. In a longer game ot tourny you can start to pick up on things. But the better players will change up allot. I try to be even keeled all the time. I have no expression and remain constant for betting, etc. My only weakness I need to work on is calling to quickly sometimes. I need to be constant or use it as a bluff move. Its important to look for tells but its also important to establish your tells to other players. Good Luck! | ||
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