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Server Time: 2/13/2012 7:52:26 PM PACIFIC |
 Middle Pair, Frank Grimes, 15. Jul 2003 07:49 | ||
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| Does anyone have any general advice about playing middle pairs? Say, for example, I am holding Qs-Js, and the flop comes A-Q-8 rainbow. If there are bettors and callers before me, I am inclined to fold right there assuming at least someone has an ace, but on occasion, particularly in loose games, it turns out that people are betting or calling gutshot straights (or even playing low pair) or a Q or J will come on the turn. I am not inclined to play "from behind" but I would like to hear opinions on staying in pots with these kinds of hands. | ||
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| Re: Middle Pair, shorn, 15. Jul 2003 08:08 | ||
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| This is a question that depends on flop texture and what is the overcard to your pair. In the case you gave (AQ8), I think a fold is automatic if there is an EP bet and a few callers. You would need better than the 5 to 1 to call (IMO) because the texture of the bard is coordinated and turnin your Jack could cost you a ton of $$. I would treat your holding as a gutshot and if the pot were laying me 11 to 1 or better, then maybe I call. However, you also have to consider what will happen behind you. Now, if the flop did not contain an Ace (say KQ8 rbow) and you were closer to the bettor, then a raise might be in order to limit the field. With second pair, I want to get heads up with any bettor and I want to take control of the pot. Even if you are behind, you increase your chances of winning by folding off weak draws that might get there if your J falls. Also, you make any outside draws make a mistake in calling you because the odds won't be there for them to call two cold. So, it comes down to flop texture and your relative position to the bettor. In the specific case you outline, I muck for sure because there is no way your Q is good right now and any raise you make will be called in more than one or two spots. Save your $$ for a better spot. | ||
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| Re: Middle Pair, Snorbolus, 15. Jul 2003 08:40 | ||
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| Against loose, tenacious players I don't think that you would be giving up much if you never called a bet with just second pair. If you had a good flush draw too, then it would probably be worth a call. There are situations where second pair is a good call, or even a raise. But, if you are planning to play this holding make sure that you have a very good idea of why you are doing it and what you are looking for on the turn. Snorbolus on 15. Jul 2003 07:49 Frank Grimes wrote: > Does anyone have any general advice about playing middle pairs? Say, for > example, I am holding Qs-Js, and the flop comes A-Q-8 rainbow. If there are > bettors and callers before me, I am inclined to fold right there assuming at > least someone has an ace, but on occasion, particularly in loose games, it turns > out that people are betting or calling gutshot straights (or even playing low > pair) or a Q or J will come on the turn. I am not inclined to play "from > behind" but I would like to hear opinions on staying in pots with these kinds of > hands. | ||
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| Re: Middle Pair, Roy Cooke, 15. Jul 2003 08:51 | ||
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| Hi Frank You ask a very good question! It is one of the tough decisions in Hold'em...and the answer, as with all tough decisions is .....It depends. In the example you give I am much less likely to take a card off. An ace out makes the call less valuable....many players play aces with any kicker and the propensity for your hand to be good or lose to aces-up if you make two pair is greater than if a King was the higher card. Several factors go into my decision on if to call with second pair or for that matter bet the hand. 1. What is the propensity for the hand to be good? 2. If I am calling what is the chance that I will get raised behind me? 3. What is the chance I will win the pot? This includes.....Am I drawing dead? Can I make my hand and lose? Can I make a play on the pot in the future that may win me the pot? What are my chances of making the winning hand? 4. What future involvement of my chips is in store for me if I continue with this hand? Am I putting myself in tough position down the road? Roy Cooke on 15. Jul 2003 07:49 Frank Grimes wrote: > Does anyone have any general advice about playing middle pairs? Say, for > example, I am holding Qs-Js, and the flop comes A-Q-8 rainbow. If there are > bettors and callers before me, I am inclined to fold right there assuming at > least someone has an ace, but on occasion, particularly in loose games, it turns > out that people are betting or calling gutshot straights (or even playing low > pair) or a Q or J will come on the turn. I am not inclined to play "from > behind" but I would like to hear opinions on staying in pots with these kinds of > hands. | ||
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| Re: Middle Pair, Frank Grimes, 15. Jul 2003 09:06 | ||
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| Thanks to all for great information. In retrospect, my example was not very apt as the presence of the ace on the flop makes the decision more clear, but I'm glad I used it because it helps differentiate some middle pair plays from others, as shorn pointed out. I will try to play lower pairs with less of a "deer in the headlights" approach from now on. | ||
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| Re: Middle Pair, SendMoney, 15. Jul 2003 09:34 | ||
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| Also consider that someone might have AQ - in which case you'll have to catch running Jacks to win - also consider if someone has K10 and one Jack comes you'll make two pair but they'll make the nut straight to beat you. This hand would be bad enough if you had a hand like A10o or A9s, with middle pair an ace overcard and a large field it should be the appropriate play to lay it down. | ||
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| Re: Middle Pair, stdioh, 15. Jul 2003 11:04 | ||
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| Blast. My response just got deleted or something. Long story short, you may hate it when you find out that the bettor folded you off the best hand sometimes, but you still need to be able to fold there. You'll hit top pair with a good kicker next time and then you can play. Just because your oppent may bet a hand worse than your doesn't mean that he must have a hand worse than your or that somebody to act after you won't have a better hand. You need to muck those cards and try to ignore it when the bettor shows doesn 78. | ||
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| Re: Middle Pair, Frinky, 15. Jul 2003 13:43 | ||
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| You've left out alot of relevant information. Most importantly, who are you up against? How many callers? Can they lay down an Ace with a medium/bad kicker? What is YOUR table image? I happened to know from playing with you before...but that is neither here nor there. Statistically, I would agree that this is not the place for you to try to pick up this hand/control of the table with a raise on the flop...folding is your probable 'long-term' play here. However, I disagree with the posters who are inclined to raise the flop....particularly because I believe you are playing in a 5/10 game that lacks respect for raises at this point of the hand. Knowing what i do about your regular game I would call...look for a rag on the turn then raise. Good luck...see you on Saturday. | ||
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| Re: Middle Pair, Frank Grimes, 15. Jul 2003 14:09 | ||
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| I can guarantee that I am talking about a 5-10 table that respects no raises, as you know. Knowing what you do about my regular game, I should fold and then complain when my money card hits on the river. | ||
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| Re: Middle Pair, stdioh, 16. Jul 2003 11:22 | ||
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| Yes, it all depends ... it depends on the information that you have. All things being equal though, this is a fold. Tweak as is appropriate to table conditions. | ||
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