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Server Time: 3/21/2010 9:55:28 PM PACIFIC |
 NL holdem To. wrong play or bad luck, Tim C, 15. Jul 2003 07:27 | ||
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| Playing last night a pokerstars, 240 players 60 of us left pays 24. I'm 2 off the cutoff seat with AdKh 11K T chips bl at 300 600. Player 3 off the cutoff raises 2k, what to do? he has 12k T chips. I'm thinking I can't fold but don't want to go all in if I don't have to. So I raise 5K which makes me pot commited. I also thought if an A or K comes on the flop I would get no further action, so try to get a few chips in preflop. Well he goes all in and I call. He has QH Qs I have Ad Kh flop 7s As 3s turn 5c river of course 4s and i'm out. My question is how many of you would go all in preflop, and if I did would he dump QQ? Would any of you fold this hand or just call prflop? Any advice or name calling welcome. Was this realy a bad play or was it a poker god submission blow? | ||
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| Re: NL holdem To. wrong play or bad luck, donrhem, 15. Jul 2003 07:45 | ||
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| Tim, You didn't say what the other players had in chips and where you were compared to them. To me that would make a big difference. When were the blinds going to go up? How has this player been playing? Lose, tight, aggressive? Without the other information I would have probably folded the hand and not called the raise. What are you going to gain by raising? If you do anything call the 2k and see the flop. If an A/K hit you could check raise or lead out all in. Don | ||
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| Re: NL holdem To. wrong play or bad luck, Big_Slick, 15. Jul 2003 07:48 | ||
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| You said that you didn't want to go all-in but you decided to raise 5,000 to make yourself "pot committed". I don't understand that thought process. Why not simply call his bet and see the flop for 2,000? If the flop misses, you can always fold or play the hand from there. You had to figure that there was a good chance this guy would move all-in if you reraised. Moreover, as good as A-K is, it is still a drawing hand. If a Ace or King doesn't flop, you're in a poor position. Personally, I would have played the hand a little more conservatively. If this guy had A-A, you would have been a huge underdog. Yes, he got lucky with the flush and that will happen but I don't think you should have put yourself in that position to begin with. Congratulations on your solid placement in the tourney. You'll get them next time. | ||
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| Re: NL holdem To. wrong play or bad luck, Tim C, 15. Jul 2003 10:57 | ||
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| Good advice, I was thinking that a 5k raise might win me the pot if he did not have a huge hand. I agree if I just call and go all in on the flop he would have to fold his QQ. I was trying too hard to double up at the wrong time. Visions of being chip leader clouded my thinking. | ||
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| Re: NL holdem To. wrong play or bad luck, shorn, 15. Jul 2003 08:01 | ||
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| Since his stack was around the same size as mine, I am not sure that would have wanted to mess with him. You are at the point in the tournament where survival is of ultimate importance. The one thing you didn't say was what was the average stack relative to yours? Could you hang around and make the $$ as others who were shorter busted out? I think you had two options here: call or fold. Any raise you made was likely inviting him to put you all-in and you didn't want that. As Sklansky points out, only re-raise with hands that you won't mind either (1) going all-in with, so very strong, or (2) throwing away without a second thought. AK doesn't fit either of those. You want to play it, but you hate it when he re-raises you. Personally, if my stack was average or above average at this point in the tourny, I would have folded the hand and waited for the same hand again when I could be the aggressor. If I was a short stack and the blinds were going to eat me up, then I would have gone all-in. If I was the chip leader, then I definitely would have folded because Ididn't have to risk chips to stay alive. | ||
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| Re: NL holdem To. wrong play or bad luck, Tim C, 15. Jul 2003 11:08 | ||
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| Shorn I was in 16th out of 60 in chip position, I got greedy and tried to get aggresive without the hand. I have read Sklankys book but only remembered the part about going all in with AK preflop. Thanks for the advice. | ||
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| Re: NL holdem To. wrong play or bad luck, Scrubbie, 15. Jul 2003 08:34 | ||
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| Another thing to think about is that if you just call, rather then raise, you may very well have been able to get him to fold his Queens due to the overcard on the flop. If he bet into you on the flop, and "then" you came over the top on him, you may very well have been able to get him to lay it down. (Most people won't commit the rest of their bank on Q-Q with an A on the table) Thus, you would have gotten "paid off" (like you wanted), yet still wouldn't have to be pot committed pre-flop. ... just another way to look at it for the future :) Scrubbie "Poker is like law, you don't want it to go to trial" | ||
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| Re: NL holdem To. wrong play or bad luck, shorn, 15. Jul 2003 08:41 | ||
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| Scrubbie- Good point, although the laydown is less likely here because of the 3 suited board with him holding the Queen of the suit. But, still definitely something to consider if you are in the situation. Steve | ||
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| Re: NL holdem To. wrong play or bad luck, Scrubbie, 15. Jul 2003 08:56 | ||
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| You know, I thought about that when I was writing it. The three flush does give the player more outs. Although, I am going to stand by my comments based on the following ... I feel that you will get a greater majority of people to lay down their hand on the flop (or the turn when they don't improve) in this situation, if "they" know it will cost them everything to "call". 'Course this also depends on their image of "YOU". This is based largely on the fact if they feel you are a "tight", "strong", or "solid" player. If you are a loose player, or someone who regularly steals on the button, then be prepared to be called. Your thoughts ... Scrubbie "Poker is like law, you don't want it to go to trial" | ||
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| Re: NL holdem To. wrong play or bad luck, shorn, 15. Jul 2003 09:15 | ||
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| I guess my thought process is that a large bet on the flop would tell me (if I was the one holding QQ) that you were most likely trying to protect an Ace rather than you have AK with the K of spades. So, I would think that I had 11 outs now instead of 2. Sure, you could have flopped a flush, but if you did do you have the King? Would a tight aggressive player call a pre-flop raise with KJs or Kxs or two smaller spades? I would guess not. A smaller bet on the flop would indicate to me AK with the K of spades. So, I agree with you that the player's image of you is very important. However I would not agree that your tight image makes a fold more likely. Rather, it may make a call more likely because of the hands that you WOULDN'T play for a raise. | ||
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| Re: NL holdem To. wrong play or bad luck, Scrubbie, 15. Jul 2003 09:39 | ||
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| Ahhhhhhh ... good counter point. Hmmmmmm. You are making a strong argument. I agree that at the flop the person would probably put me on an Ace, and most likely "not" on the King of spades, thus making it so they have more than enough outs to call. (or even reraise, in the event I didn't push on the flop) The best part is to see the smoke coming out one's ears, while they are trying to calculate all this at the table. (*ha,ha,ha,ha*) I think we both agree you "don't" raise or "push all-in" preflop in this situation. Even if the person isn't on AA, KK, or QQ, you are probably still only a small favorite with A-Ko, at best. I personally don't like to "gamble" my entire fate of a tourney that early off for a 60/40 prop. Scrubbie "Poker is like law, you don't want it to go to trial" | ||
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| Re: NL holdem To. wrong play or bad luck, shorn, 15. Jul 2003 10:13 | ||
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| Yes, we do agree that pushing all-in pre-flop would be a stuoid move. But, these are the decisions (IMO) that make NL and PL much more fun and interesting than limit play where you have a hard time forcing people off of hands with 1 bet. My policy is always is I am going to risk all my chips on a coin flip hand, then i damn well better be the aggressor and not the caller (unless I am a short stack and need to double up in a hurry, or the chip leader and can absorb the smaller stacks all-in). In this situation, I still really think folding was the best option due to the stack sizes, the point in the tournament, calling versus betting, and no indication of what may happen behind you. | ||
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| Re: NL holdem To. wrong play or bad luck, mroban, 15. Jul 2003 14:19 | ||
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| I have just one question - why do you think you were pot committed at the point he reraised you all in? Unless I read your post wrong, you still would have had T5500 left had you folded after he went all in. Lick your wounds and live to fight another battle I say. Anybody else agree with this? | ||
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| Re: NL holdem To. wrong play or bad luck, Scrubbie, 15. Jul 2003 15:51 | ||
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| Aside from "raising with the intention to fold" being a horrid strategy ... As shorn and I pointed out earlier, your "risk" is too high. Wait till "you" make the move, and let the other guy have the tough decision. Scrubbie "Poker is like law, you don't want it to go to trial" | ||
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| Re: NL holdem To. wrong play or bad luck, mkpoker, 15. Jul 2003 08:51 | ||
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| I preface this response with "I really don't know what I'm talking about," BUT... I like Tim's reraise pre-flop but NOT his calling the all in bet. Here's my rationale: With opponent's 2.K raise, he may be trying to steal or he may have a good hand--you really can't tell without knowing your opponent well. But after you reraise 4-5K, he's not gonna re-raise without a huge hand. When he goes all-in, you can be confident he's on a monster. After he's all in, I'd put him on no less than JJ or QQ (which means you're a slight dog if you call). *But also, he could have KK or AA*, which means you're in huge trouble, virtually drawing dead, with AK. After he makes the all-in reraise, I'd muck the AK, lick my wounds, but be happy I lost less than 1/2 my stack. Then, start concentrating on building it up again. I think folding to his original raise is a better pre-flop option than flat-calling. Mucking to his raise pre-flop is obviously the lowest risk strategy, and "survival" is the name of the game! Flat calling puts a good chunk of your chips at risk, but doesn't give you the information you need to play the rest of the hand. Shorn (and other, better, players), what's wrong with my thought process here? | ||
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| Re: NL holdem To. wrong play or bad luck, shorn, 15. Jul 2003 09:20 | ||
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| I don't like the re-raise for a few reasons: (1) you have a drawing hand that most likely needs to hit to win; (2) any re-raise worth its merit comits you to this pot if you want to stay alive in the tournament. If you raise to $7k, that's half your stack and if you don't call an all-in, you are now a short stack without seeing any cards; (3) why challenge in this particular spot when you don't have to? You aren't a short stack so you don't need this pot to survive. IMO, AKo is NOT good enough to call all your chips off with against a similar size stack. I really think a fold is the best play here, but a call is not out of the question. Yes, it won't give you all the information you need. But, since you need to hit the flop in a relatively big way (and you didn't), you haven't committed too many chips to a failed draw late in the tournament. | ||
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| Re: NL holdem To. wrong play or bad luck, SendMoney, 15. Jul 2003 10:05 | ||
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| AK vs QQ is a hand we've seen a couple times on the WPT. At the Bicycle Club Kathy Liebert goes all-in over the top of tournament winner Chris Karmagullyan (spelling?) with her AK, Chris's QQ held up and busted her out on the first hand shown. At the Commerce Casino they show a flashback of eventual 2nd place finishe Daniel Rentzier busting out defending champion Carlos Mortensen with AK vs Carlos's QQ when an A came on the flop. It's a classic NL battle, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose - if your side card K had been the king of spades you would have won, the fact the board came flush coordinated and your opponent had that suit and you didn't is just random chance. | ||
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| Re: NL holdem To. wrong play or bad luck, Tim C, 15. Jul 2003 11:18 | ||
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| sendmoney That was in my mind also, there is no way I would fold the hand preflop for a 2k raise. I raised hoping he was on a steal, but when he reraises I guess I should have laid it down. But it depends. | ||
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