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Server Time: 11/21/2008 10:18:57 PM PACIFIC |
 Poker Stars cheating?, WhenPigsFly, 14. Jul 2003 23:14 | ||
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| I've been playing on-line about 6 weeks now 7 one of the first "rumors" I heard was that Poker Stars is rigged. I dismissed it as just the usual bad beat belly-aching you hear in one form or another about almost anything. Well, after playing on Poker Stars and Party Poker both for the 6 week period, I am now not so sure. Bad beats happen in all poker, but at Poker Stars it seems at times as though some players actually know the cards that are coming. It's one thing to draw out on a hand, but some of the all-in calls I've seen make absolutely no sense even for the stupidest of players -- unless they know the cards that are coming. So my question for the forum is this. Has anyone given any serious thought to the very real possibility that some programmer has left a back door into Poker Star's software that allows him or his buddies to see the board before it's dealt? One last point, the quality of poker played at Poker Stars is generally better than at Party Poker and, as a result, Party Poker has more than its share of the usual suck out type bad beats. But what it doesn't have, despite all the weak players, is people calling all-in with nothing hands and then flopping 2 nines to go with their pocket J9o. At least not as routinely as this seems to happen at Poker Stars. | ||
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| Re: Poker Stars cheating?, geirel, 14. Jul 2003 23:47 | ||
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| You are looking for ways to excuse your losses, use that energy in finding ways to play better and you might win too. However 10% win, 20% break even and 70% lose , if you are in the top 10% you would not look for excuses, but buy pokertracker or another software, analyze the hands, and find your leaks, and also see that the people who draw you out are mostly losing. | ||
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| Re: Poker Stars cheating?, WhenPigsFly, 15. Jul 2003 00:01 | ||
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| Well, thanks for your imput, but the problem with your theory is I'm not losing. I'm actually up quite a bit at both sites. Do you have any thoughts on the question I actually asked? | ||
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| Re: Poker Stars cheating?, fourstar2000, 15. Jul 2003 11:54 | ||
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| I'm a little confused. If you are up quite a bit on Poker Stars, why would you make accusations of cheating? I think there are two reasons you're getting so many non-sympathetic responses to your original post: 1) posts about rigged online sites appear pretty frequently on this forum, although they generally take the appearance of "POKERSTARS IS RIGGED! THEY WILL TAKE ALL YOUR MONEY! CNN IS DOING A REPORT ON IT RIGHT NOW!" 2) getting sucked out seems to happen so frequently online that its mind-boggling, but its usually just the effect of more hands being dealt and selective memory. The most convenient explanation is to say that there is some form of cheating going on, but there are a ton of different reasons why someone might go all-in on a garbage hand (maniac, on tilt, incredibly drunk, etc.). Other posters have made legitimate points about sites having no motive to ruin a good thing by trying to get a little extra illegally when they make so much legally. Could there be cheating going on? Sure. But they'd be pretty stupid to do so. on 15. Jul 2003 00:01 WhenPigsFly wrote: > Well, thanks for your imput, but the problem with your theory is I'm not losing. I'm > actually up quite a bit at both sites. Do you have any thoughts on the question I actually > asked? | ||
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| Re: Poker Stars cheating?, Tim C, 15. Jul 2003 12:13 | ||
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| Hi Pigs I play at pokerstars all the time mostly no limit sit ngos. I too sometimes get the feeling that you know whats coming on the river. But usually only when it puts a beat on me. Whats your pokerstars Id? mines tcraiseit see you there. When I start to think it's rigged I know I need a break. | ||
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| Re: Poker Stars cheating?, WhenPigsFly, 15. Jul 2003 16:13 | ||
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| I use WhenPigsFly at Poker Stars and Party Poker. I'll look for you ...but don't cheat!! | ||
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| Re: Poker Stars cheating?, Tim C, 15. Jul 2003 19:49 | ||
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| Hi Pigs I think we have played a few times, I agree ther are some strange hands played. I hope its legit. Keep your eyes open. | ||
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| Re: Poker Stars cheating?, wolvish, 16. Jul 2003 09:44 | ||
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| nice response....one well deserved | ||
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| Re: Poker Stars cheating?, 4 POKER, 15. Jul 2003 00:31 | ||
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| Hey, To answer your question, if I really felt in my heart that there were programmers out there who had the ability to see the board before the cards were even dealt out........then I wouldn't be depositing any of my money into internet poker. If it was possible to happen, then it's possible to happen on any site, not just at Poker Stars. Try to look at this from a more realistic view, that because there are soooo many newbies on-line and they really are unaware of what a bad holding really is, they will call your bets and/or raises with what *appears* to be junk to you, but may not appear to be junk to *them*, thus for leaving you scratching your head many times and literally just talking to yourself because of the horrific call they just made. It happens all the time and it happens even more when you play on-line. But I honestly think if you're a really strong player and everything is on the up and up (like I believe it to be), then all those bad beats that you may suffer will just add up to being part of the game of poker, and your strong skills and experience will outweigh all of that. I hope that if you do chose to continue with on-line poker, that you feel really comfortable with your decision and won't have any doubts like the ones you've mentioned because you must have total trust with the business in which you put your money in. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Poker Stars cheating?, shorn, 15. Jul 2003 05:22 | ||
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| Pigs- I think the obvious answer to your question is yes. There is most certainly a way and the chance that a programmer has left a door open to be exploited. But, my response to the suck out question is always "Why would the site do it?" With all of the people playing online now, these sites are raking in hundreds of thousands of dollars an hour just by being in existence. IMO< it would be extremely foolish to "kill the golden goose" by trying to make a few extra bucks and letting your buddies see the cards before they are played out. One question I have for you is what limit you were playing? One way to combat your fear is to not play at the higher limits where collusion and cheating are more likely because the payoff is greater. I generally stick to 5-10 and below for this reason. IMO, I think 4POKER has the right idea. With the explosion of TV coverage and the fact that two amateurs have won the WSOP back to back (with crappy last hands I might add), the number of fish in the sea is multiplying by fission now and therefore will cause the solid player to have a much wider standard deviation in results than he/she is used too. But, have no fear...in the long run this will mean much more $$ on the bottom line. Good luck. Steve | ||
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| Re: Poker Stars cheating?, onlinechamp, 15. Jul 2003 06:05 | ||
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| http://forum.onlinechamppoker.com/ I love my pokerstars 30-60 game come get me!!! And don't forget to visit the OCP!!!!!!!!!!!! | ||
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| Re: Poker Stars cheating?, WhenPigsFly, 15. Jul 2003 10:30 | ||
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| I'm talking about No Limit Hold 'Em. As far as the "They have no reason to cheat" argument goes, I don't find that very reassuring. First, it's not absolutely necessary that Poker Stars know about the cheating. It could be a programmer working on his own. Second, in the not so distant past, poker rooms routinely cheated at cards. The incentive should be obvious. The fact that you can make a dollar legitimately doesn't mean some people won't make two dollars by cheating. It happens all the time. | ||
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| Re: Poker Stars cheating?, MozMan, 15. Jul 2003 08:05 | ||
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| Hey Pigs- I have often pondered this question myself. It often appears that unusual events are happening online. But I keep pretty meticulous records of both online play and B&M play, and everytime I check them, I don't see anything any more unusual about the online play than I do abou the B&M play. One thing I started to do at the B&M is to make a side note everytime I hear someone say something like, "I woulda had a boat if I played that one," or even if the generally show exasperation when the flop comes and they don't have cards. That tells me that they threw away trash, but the flop matched their trash; so this *would have been* a real suckout if they were a fish. When I figure those in, the B&M experience would be as bad or worse (in terms of suckouts and bad beats) than online. So, essentially, what I think is happening online is two things: 1- You are playing twice as many hands per hour, so this kind of thing appear worse because it is simply more frequent by default; 2- There are many more people, especially and very low and micro limits, who will play any hand all the way to the river and call every bet. When you have only one at the table who is doing that, you don't get sucked out too often, but when there are five, then they start taking turns sucking you out, and it feels more frequent because it is. -Moz "The reports of my assimilation are greatly exaggerated." | ||
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| Re: Poker Stars cheating?, spk, 15. Jul 2003 10:17 | ||
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| Pigs- You are right on the money on your post, I hate getting scammed by those darn programmers.....and by the way make sure you watch out for the following: - have you noticed the clown van driving around your neiborhood lately, dont get in the clown van they take you far away and do bad things. - when in vegas stay clear of the attractive woman who offers you a drink, its really a sleeping potion and you will wind up in a bath tube dead... - dont swallow gum, I swallowed a pack of big league chew 7 years ago and and I am just now digesting it.... | ||
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| Re: Poker Stars cheating?, Jav, 15. Jul 2003 10:10 | ||
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| At PokerStars they also show all the down cards when one or more players are all-in and no more bets can be made. Then they slowly deal the remaining cards. This makes for dramatic bad beats when it happens. At PartyPoker the cards are dealt and the pot awarded so fast that you don't even know what happened half the time. And you certainly don't have time to sit around thinking about what a bad call it was just to see the bad caller win the hand. (Since you don't even know if it was a bad call until after you knew who won). I could be wrong, but I think that could skew the impact of badbeats on all-in hands. | ||
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| Re: Poker Stars cheating?, WhenPigsFly, 15. Jul 2003 10:40 | ||
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| Thanks. You make a good point about Party Poker's software. It would tend to hide the type of action I'm describing. Cheating at B & M card rooms went on for years. I have to say I'm a little surprised that a forum comprised of poker players seems to have so much faith that they're not being cheated. I was actually hoping for a discussion about how tough it would be to get away with this sort of thing, assuming Poker Stars want to stop it. Can one programmer have much luck finding a backdoor left by another programmer, that sort of thing. Instead, I've been treating (not from you) to responses that sound more like they're written by people with a vested interest in avoiding the topic. It doesn't impress me. | ||
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| Re: Poker Stars cheating?, Jav, 15. Jul 2003 14:21 | ||
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| It is definately possible for the programmers to program some way to let themselves (or others if they shared the information) cheat. But in a business that generates so much money, I would hope (but I obviously don't know for sure) that they have code reviews that are conducted by more than the responsible programmer, even more so in the sensitive portions of the code. As far as an unrelated programmer figuring out someone elses back door, I find that highly unlikely. But like you've heard from lots of other people. It is definately possible, though very unlikely. Have you paid close attention to the people who have sucked out on you? I would imagine someone making plays that bad would donate the money they won back to other players quickly. The most important thing is that if you feel uncomfortable playing there, you should probably withdrawel your money and play someplace you feel more comfortable about the fairness in the games... | ||
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| Re: Poker Stars cheating?, LJH, 15. Jul 2003 14:30 | ||
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| PIGS, IF YOU DO NOT LLIKE THE ANSWERS THEN LOOK INTO YOUR OWN SOUL. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO SEND SNOTTY ANSWERS TO OTHERS WHO ARE ENTITLED TO THEIR OPINIONS. LJH | ||
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| Re: Poker Stars cheating?, donrhem, 15. Jul 2003 14:39 | ||
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| LJH, Please don't use all CAPS. That is considered shouting. Thanks, Don | ||
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| Re: Poker Stars cheating?, Big_Slick, 15. Jul 2003 17:55 | ||
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| He's been asked to curtail his caps before. His one-line answers are bad enough but then he expects people to read them in caps?? | ||
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| Re: Poker Stars cheating?, donrhem, 16. Jul 2003 10:19 | ||
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| Big, I thought some one did before but I didn't think it would hurt to ask again:-) Don | ||
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| Re: Poker Stars cheating?, WhenPigsFly, 15. Jul 2003 16:21 | ||
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| Forgive me. I didn't realize you were so sensitive. You sure you play poker? Maybe my problem is trying to compare on-line poker with B & M poker. | ||
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| Re: Poker Stars cheating?, stdioh, 15. Jul 2003 11:16 | ||
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| I think that it is a lot easier to think that an online site is cheating when things go wrong because there is a big mystery as to where the cards are coming from. You don't see a dealer shuffling and distributing cards. Likewise you aren't sitting across the table from some bonehead telling you stories and drinking his beer, so when somebody does something so stupid they must be cheating to win, it seems like they must be cheating. When it happens in a live game you usually have other cues that the game is honest and that the winner is an idiot. Thus, to make a long story short, if you think that a site is cheating because you have seen a lot of unlikely things happen, it is far more likely that you are just taking more than your share of beats and that they are being amplified in your mind by the fact that you can't see in behind the works of the site. Big places like Stars make too much money honestly to cheat at the small limits. If they were cheating at the big limits I could see it being possible, but everybody who bellyaches about cheating sites is playing $1-$2, surprisingly enough. I never hear, "I sat down at the 100-200 table and I couldn't believe what happened" | ||
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| Re: Poker Stars cheating?, spk, 15. Jul 2003 11:23 | ||
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| Spork- Check back in a week or so and the same post will be posted only from a different new person and it will be aimed a another site. Of course it is possible, but I don't think any site is going to give us the source code. Also not to sound like an ass but if it is rigged then why am I up close to 6k?a | ||
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| Re: Poker Stars cheating?, WhenPigsFly, 15. Jul 2003 13:11 | ||
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| Listen, I sincerely appreciate everyone's input. I realize that there is no way anyone here can say definitively that Poker Stars is or is not cheating and I understand that bad beats happen in poker (I thought I made that clear in my original post). My point, however, is not the usual type of bad beat you see everywhere, it's a type of bad beat that is unique in my experience to Poker Stars. It isn't happening at Party Poker where there are many more weak players and it isn't happening in any of the live games I've played in since the 1960's. Even in the days when poker games were as likely to be rigged as not, you didn't see the kind of hands I'm talking about here. As I said, the defining characteristic is a call or raise made all-in at No-limit Hold 'Em with cards that even a drunk wouldn't play, against a very strong hand, and then the most unlikely of suck outs. It's the kind of hand you could go years without seeing in a B & M game and I've now personally been the victim of 4 times in 6 weeks. Now, maybe this is just really bad luck. I hope so. But it does occur to me that there is another potential explanation. I guess, maybe more than anything else, I'd like to know how many others are experiencing these types of hands. The problem may well just be really strange play, but it is happening often enough that I am beginning to get suspicious. The solution for me may be nothing more complicated than closing my Poker Stars account. There are certainly plenty of other places to play, but I actually like their $2/$4 NLHE games (when I'm not getting my pocket aces busted by an all-in call with QJs that then flops trip queens) and I haven't found another site that plays above $0.50/$1.00 NLHE. Any suggestions about other sites I might try? | ||
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| Re: Poker Stars cheating?, WhenPigsFly, 15. Jul 2003 13:27 | ||
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| Another quick point about what makes the hands I'm talking about so suspicious. If people calling and raising all-in with lousy cards against strong hands is just weak play and not cheating, why is it they ALWAYS hit their cards? It's gotten so bad that last night when my opponent turned the QJs against my pocket aces, I expected to lose. I'm not seeing these type of calls and then the hands not sucking out. If it was just bad play, the QJ would only very rarely win and I can't remember the last time I had an all-in call against a crazy hand that the suck out didn't hit. That's what makes Poker Stars so suspicious, not the really, really bad play, but the really, really bad play seems to only occur when it wins. | ||
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| Re: Poker Stars cheating? And whats this this Tracking software?, Ippikiay, 15. Jul 2003 19:05 | ||
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| I'm interested in this tracking software I saw mentioned. Name? Various programs available? Recommendations? Sounds interesting. I tried PokerStars. Only reason I was able to keep any money was because I kept winning the single table tournaments. Just couldn't take the frustration of being chased down in regardless of my holdings on the live games. Not one winning session in a live game. Finally cashed out and ran. I'm spoiled. I like to win. So I play where I win. Don't see any reason for getting stubborn about beating one particular room. Not profitable and no fun either. C'est la vie. Can't win em all I guess...Sometimes ya just gotta take your chips and go home. :) Try Paradise. | ||
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| Re: Poker Stars cheating?, Giocatore, 15. Jul 2003 14:10 | ||
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| WhenPigsFly, I have been playing on PokerStars for nearly two years now and can honestly say that I have logged over 750 hours of both live and tournament play. As with any online poker site, due to the speed of the game, you're going to see some incredible scenarios play out. I happened to be in a real live 10/20 HE game the other day, board was K-10-4-8-4, someone with wired 4s caught quads on the river and not only did he beat someone holding KK, but another guy holding 10-10. The pot was nearly $600, with each betting round capped out. If you want to see an absolutely absurd play, see my post from yesterday entitled "NL TOURNEY HAND." I'm still shaking my head over that one. As for the subject of cheating, there is no doubt that collusion is going on in some way. One time, I was watching a short-handed 3/6 HE table, yet before I sat down I checked everyone's location, just an old habit of mine. There happened to be 2 players at that table from "Wheelersburg," wherever that is. After 5 minutes of observation, I could tell right away that these two were colluding, most likely via messenger, exchanging information with and soft playing one another, i.e. checking the board down when they were heads up or one betting and the other folding. Needless to say I decided not to sit at that table. You also brought up an interesting topic which I like to refer to as "rewarding bad play." I have been the victim of this several times as of late and to be honest, it's really starting to irritate me. In another 10/20 game on PS, I'm holding AK in the big blind, everyone folds to the button who raises, small blind folds and I make it 3 bets sensing weakness and that this guy was trying to steal. He calls and the flop comes A-4-4. I bet, he raises, I re-raise, he calls. Turn is a blank. I bet again, he raises, I re-raise, he just calls again. Notice that he did not cap any of these betting rounds. The river brings a K. I bet again, he pauses for a good 10 seconds, then raises. At this time I have the feeling that I'm beat, sensing maybe A-4 or K-4, and just call. He turns over KK, hitting his one outer on the river and beating my aces and kings. I can't tell you how many times I've seen someone build a nice-sized pot when they have to know they're beat only to catch a miracle card on the river, as was the case in this situation. It's just sickening. But is there some way he knew that the king would hit the river, thereby justifying his building of the pot? I would say no, otherwise, like 4 POKER, Shorn and a few others have said, I would not be playing online poker, that is, if I didn't trust it. But I will observe similar situations on a nightly basis, where a complete fool builds a huge pot with absolutely nothing and catches. There is nothing more aggrevating than watching these morons get rewarded for their pitiful play. Luckily I'm more disciplined now than I was a few years back and know better than to chase my money back with marginal holdings or declare war on that idiot who sucked out on me. The fact that I've been running into such scenarios recently has led me to take a break from poker for a little while. While I've enjoyed considerable success in the games I play, this recent skid has mentally aggrevated me to the point where I've lost some of my confidence. At this time I just don't feel that I have the best of it and admit that if I were to sit in a game right after completing this post that I would be scared of losing under similar circumstances such as the ones described above. You also mentioned that you're a winning play on PokerStars, and I don't have any reason to doubt you. I'm sure you've also witnessed several similar scenarios, but keep in mind that when idiots make ridiculous plays and luck out on the river, there is no conceivable way that they are beating the game in the longrun if they play by the seat of their pants. Let them have their moments and tell you that they outplayed you in the chat box, because I for one take satisfaction in knowing that these are the same fools who have been supplementing my income for the past two and a half years. - Giocatore | ||
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| Re: Poker Stars cheating?, WhenPigsFly, 15. Jul 2003 16:34 | ||
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| Gio, What you describe in limit games sounds very similar to what I'm describing in no-limit, but there is one, important difference. I assume that MOST of the time when you run into one of these weak players who "builds the pot," he doesn't draw out on the river. What I'm talking about is a particular type of "weak" play that is only being made when -- guess what? --it's going to pay off. Like I said, I can't remember ever being called all-in at Poker Stars with a crap hand like J9o, when it DIDN'T hit. The reason, of course, is because even very weak players don't shove ALL their money in on J9o very often. If the thrash hand won an all-in bet every once in a while, that would just be poker. But when trash hands are batting 4 for 4 on all-in calls at the same on-line site and only at that on-line site, well, I think there are legitimate reasons to ask questions. I'm going to continue to play at Poker Stars, but I'm going to start keeping very close records of the all-in hands I play in against weak hands. If they continue to draw out the way they have they have been so far, well, I won't be playing there much longer. Thanks for the helpful reply. | ||
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| Re: Poker Stars cheating?, Giocatore, 15. Jul 2003 17:32 | ||
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| No problem WhenPigsFly. I really enjoyed your initial post and just thought I could contribute information based on my play on that site. Personally I'm going to take some time off from PokerStars after having been the victim of some truly absurd play, but I won a seat in the WCOOP Event #1 so I'll be back there sometime in early August. If you don't mind, please continue to share any similar experiences on this board. I usually check to see what topics are being discussed at least once a day. Thanks and good luck in your games. Giocatore | ||
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| Re: Poker Stars cheating?, SKinner, 16. Jul 2003 12:31 | ||
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| I'll admit to wondering about cheating every now and then, but I never think it's the website. There is software out there that is supposed to be able to decipher the patterns in the cards such that a player can know what everybody is holding and what cards are coming. The good news is that I imagine that online sites have taken very great measures to keep their random number generating algorithm secret. But every now and then, someone will cap preflop betting with 33, only to see their 2-outer hit. It's not the 2-outer hitting that surprises me. Not at all. what surprises me is that I have seen this guy play for 2 hours, and I've seen him limp in with low pocket pairs. Why is it that on this particular occasion he decided to raise preflop? When i see behavior like this that does not match their previous behavior, and then I further see them get paid off, I have to admit that I sometimes wonder. Thing is, I wonder for like 2 minutes, then I forget about it. The reason I am able to forget about it is because I'm already sitting in my chair after having mucked my QJo to the raise. Besides, wondering about that sort of thing is just going to hurt my game. I have no doubt that solid play would overcome this kind of thing, even if it were happening. Choose your battles. The money you don't lose is MUCH, MUCH more valuable than the money you don't win. sorry for rambling. Heck, I don't even know if anything I said made any sense. –SKinner | ||
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