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Server Time: 11/22/2008 1:21:41 AM PACIFIC |
 NL TOURNEY HAND, Giocatore, 14. Jul 2003 22:54 | ||
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| It cannot get any worse than this. The following is an edited hand history (names and game number) of a $100 NL tournament hand I was in. Read through it and please tell me that I'm not insane and did not do anything wrong, considering how it played out and especially considering what the guy who beat me was holding. Thanks. PokerStars Game xxx: Tournament , Hold'em No Limit - Level II (15/30) Table '182994 7' Seat #3 is the button Seat 1: Player 1 (1220 in chips) Seat 2: GIOCATORE (1865 in chips) Seat 3: Player 3 (1620 in chips) Seat 4: Player 4 (2875 in chips) Seat 5: Player 5 (1610 in chips) Seat 6: Player 6 (1220 in chips) Seat 7: Player 7 (1430 in chips) Seat 8: Player 8 (1415 in chips) Seat 9: Player 9 (1935 in chips) Player 4: posts small blind 15 Player 5: posts big blind 30 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to GIOCATORE [As Ks] Player 6: folds Player 7: folds Player 8: calls 30 Player 9: calls 30 Player 1: folds GIOCATORE: raises 470 to 500 Player 3: folds Player 4: folds Player 7: folds Player 8: folds Player 9: calls 500 *** FLOP *** [Ts Jd 8c] Player 9: checks GIOCATORE: bets 1365 and is all-in Player 9: calls 1365 *** TURN *** [Ts Jd 8c] [7d] *** RIVER *** [Ts Jd 8c 7d] [4d] *** SHOW DOWN *** Player 9: shows [7c 4c] (two pair, Sevens and Fours) GIOCATORE: shows [As Ks] (high card Ace) GIOCATORE said, "lol" Winchester2 collected 3805 from pot Player x said, "are u serious" Player x said, "that's just sick" *** SUMMARY *** Total pot 3805 | Rake 0 Board [Ts Jd 8c 7d 4d] Seat 1: 1 folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 2: GIOCATORE showed [Ac Ks] and lost with high card Ace Seat 3: 3 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 4: 4 (small blind) folded before Flop Seat 5: 5 (big blind) folded before Flop Seat 6: 6 folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 7: 7 folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 8: 8 folded before Flop Seat 9: 9 showed [7c 4c] and won (3805) with two pair, Sevens and Fours How can this guy possibly call that flop? Am I missing something here? This is about as ridiculous and absurd as it gets. | ||
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| Re: NL TOURNEY HAND, flintsword, 14. Jul 2003 23:12 | ||
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| Giocatore, you maybe should have played a smaller bet (3 x BB) to start out with, say 90 or 100 chips. The low blinds (level II) imply that it is the beginning of the tournament and you are probably still "hip-deep" in squirrels at this point, so you want to win, but not risk the entire wad to any crazed lunatics out there, ... or a lucky flopped two pairs, set, etc. As for the 7 4 bet, ... the charitable side of me says that he read the Game Theory chapter of TOP and has decided to play 7 4 like a real hand anytime he plays it. The practical side of me says that this guy is just a lucky squirrel, but in all fairness, you manufactured a part of your bad luck by betting too much of your stack on one hand. Remember that the object is to win the game, ... not "nuke your opponents" (please take this the right way Gio ...). Last thought: "The lucky man, is usually the man, who knows how much to leave to chance." By betting too much, you left too much to chance. I hope my comments are helpful. flintsword | ||
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| Re: NL TOURNEY HAND, 4 POKER, 15. Jul 2003 02:11 | ||
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| Hey Gio, Yeah, that is pretty bad. His limp in call was incorrect, his decision to call your substantial raise was incorrect and everything about his choices were incorrect. There's definitely no doubt about that. You sure did put enough pressure on this guy on the flop and who knows what he was thinking. Obviously 7 high was not going to do it for him and maybe he was looking for a runner runner gut-shot straight with his 7 card....and maybe he was smokin' too much weed that night, too! Who knows. I stopped trying to figure out why some of these awful players on-line do the things they do because their plays are just too ridiculous to even concern myself with. I try not to get caught up in their own bad play, and concentrate on how I can profit the most from any one game. And if they happen to hit their one-outer against my set of Aces, it won't provoke me to be chasing them down either just to try and get lucky and beat them the next time they raise pre-flop....when I have the best of it....they'll know, and when I think it's correct to fold (regardless of who is involved), then I'll do so. It's just too hard to try and make any kind of moves or fancy plays when you're only up against an opponent who has no clue in the first place. I was in a hand earlier at a 6 player max table while holding A-7 in the BB. Four of us took the flop with no pre-flop raises. The flop came up 7-4-4 giving me top pair nut kicker. I bet out, one guy called and the next guy raised. I decided to call and the middle guy folded. The player who raised the flop was sort of a trappy type so I didn't think he would raise here with trip 4's, but still wasn't sure so I just called. The turn card brought the third 4. I checked, he bet, and I just called. Now after seeing that third 4, I now thought that it was less likely that he held quads and I didn't put him on a higher pocket pair than the 7 that was on the flop. The river card brought an Ace giving me 4's full of Aces now so I thought, if he did hold the other 7, now I have him beat and that's what I put him on so I bet into him on the river. I bet, he raised, I called, and he showed me 10-9! Now did I think that his play was rather strange?Yup. Especially that he chose to take total control over the hand when there were player/s who were willing to call his raises. And when I now bet into him on the river, how can he possibly think that I don't have a piece of that flop? But...he raises anyway! Given the way the hand played out, I was shocked (but not surprised) that he made such an attempt to now raise me on the river....but I was just as happy that he did, and he'll try to do it again, and that's ok, too because these are the guys that we truly want at our table.....even if they punish you once in awhile.......it's ok. The best advice I could give you is to play solid poker and make the best decisions that *you* can make and keep playing with people who are willing to commit their stack with 7-4, because you GOTTA love it! Who knows why players do some of the things that they do. So for that reason, the one thing that I can do is to just play solid and try to put my opponents on numerous holdings when they call my bets, and use my own best judgement on whether I think my own hand is strong enough to continue. If they want to call or raise with nothing, then good for them....and good for you, too because those are the ones that are contributing to your potential earn and that's how you make money in the long run. Better luck to you Gio, and always......Buona fortuna A Te! 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: NL TOURNEY HAND, shorn, 15. Jul 2003 05:14 | ||
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| I think that it was a bad beat, no doubt. But, I agree with flint that you played your stack as if you had nothing on the flop. The all-in bet with two overcards is a really dangerous play and actually signals that you don't want to get called because your hand is weak. In fact, if I was holding his hand, I would have put you on AK or AQ, but definitely not a big pair. So, his decision was I can call and try and double up since I don't believe him or fold and then have doubling up not mean as much. I think flint hit the nail on the head here when he said that you raised too much pre-flop. You basically raised 4x the pot after the callers came and he still called. Once he called, that could mean 3 things: (1) he has a monster, (2) he is a total fish who doesn't know how to play, or (3) he has a decent hand and wanted to see a flop. Either way, since he did call I think you MUST slow down if the flop doesn't help you. Also, the flop was somewhat coordinated so what did you put him on before you made your all-in bet? Another way to think of it is what hand would he call with pre-flop for a big raise that he would fold on the flop with TJ on the board? What do you think he put you on? Would you have gone all-in with AA or KK on the flop? I am certainly no expert NL player (and I particularly stink at SNG's which i think this was), but I am not a believer in pushing AK for all my chips after a big raise has been called pre-flop. Take the free card and maybe you can hit something. If you check, he bets the turn and you don't improve, you can throw it away and continue to survive with an above average stack for a better situation. Again, since I am not a NL expert, i don't want you to take this as too critical. That is just how I would have played it: 4x BB raise pre-flop; when called, slow down and see the turn for free; if I improve bet, if not then wait to fight another day. | ||
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| Re: NL TOURNEY HAND, 4 POKER, 15. Jul 2003 05:24 | ||
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| Hey shorn, I am not a N/L expert either but, even if Gio held A-K, what was this guy thinking when he called that huge bet with 7 high? He had no pair, no straight or flush draw....all he had on the flop was 7 high. He (Gio) chose to take a stand with his holding and he did flop the nut straight draw as well with 2 overcards to hit. I think his opponents call was much the worse, but that's just MO. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: NL TOURNEY HAND, shorn, 15. Jul 2003 05:37 | ||
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| I certainly agree that his opponenet made a bonehead play and certainly more so than Gio's play. However, my main point was that when you make a large raise and you are called, you need to interpret that as meaning something. I think in this case, it warranted checking behind the player and not risking ll of your chips and trying to peel off an Ace or a King or a queen. My philosophy in NL is the same as Sklansky's: aggressively pursue small pots by raising with good holdings but when you get called, you need to slow down. By going all in OTF with essentialy nothing at that point, GIO (again, IMO) tried to muscle this guy off a hand without stopping to think what he may hold. Since the guy has already committed a good portion of his stack pre-flop, do you think he would fold a Jack or a Ten? Probably not. Also, why go all-in with AK on that flop? Why not bet a smaller amount to see where you stand? If he calls or plays back at you then you can get out cheaply and wait for a better spot. If this were a ring game where you could go back into your pocket and get more $$, then the play makes more sense. However, in tourny play (especially this early in the SNG), survival is more important. There wa no way that GIO could assure himself of winning (or even moneying) by taking this pot. However, he could (and did) assure himself of not moneying. IMO, regardless of the fact that his opponent made a horrendous play, GIO overplayed the hand given the information provided by the caller and I think there was a better way to go. Steve | ||
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| Re: NL TOURNEY HAND, 4 POKER, 15. Jul 2003 05:44 | ||
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| Steve, Yeah....you're right. And thanks for explaining it. I respect your thinking. Dave | ||
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| Re: NL TOURNEY HAND, shorn, 15. Jul 2003 05:50 | ||
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| No worries. I hope I didn't sound too harsh to GIO. Beleive me...there are plenty of times where I have tried to run over someone with AK in NL and been called down with shite. I have just decided that it isn't worth it anymore. | ||
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| Re: NL TOURNEY HAND, Big_Slick, 15. Jul 2003 07:59 | ||
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| How can this guy possibly call that flop? Am I missing something here? This is about as ridiculous and absurd as it gets. How can you possibly go all-in with nothing? I realize that you have a lot of outs here, but all-in? I don't like that play. | ||
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| Re: NL TOURNEY HAND, stdioh, 15. Jul 2003 11:17 | ||
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| Wow. That is pretty shocking that he called your bluff with a hand that couldn't beat a bluff. Just shocking. | ||
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| Re: NL TOURNEY HAND, LJH, 15. Jul 2003 14:36 | ||
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| GIOC, DEAR GOD HOW MANY BAD BEAT HANDS MUST WE LISTEN TO! LJH | ||
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| Re: NL TOURNEY HAND, 4 POKER, 15. Jul 2003 17:10 | ||
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| LJH, In all fairness to Gio, by him posting that, it allowed for him to hear some feedback about the entire situation at hand. Try not to be too harsh on him, he's only looking for answers with maybe a little encouragement. Thanks LJH, 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: NL TOURNEY HAND, Giocatore, 15. Jul 2003 17:27 | ||
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| Thanks 4 POKER. Although I could not care less about what some unknown member posts, in all CAPS no less. There are only a select few members whose posts are actually insightful and worth reading. I should have added in my post that I was fully aware that I was overbetting my hand, but then again, it was a NL tourney, and when I have a strong holding I tend to make people pay to see the flop. My main point is how could that person possibly call my all-in, considering what he was holding and taking into account that I came over the top for 500 before the flop when the blinds were still 15/30? I'm still baffled by it. | ||
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| Re: NL TOURNEY HAND, 4 POKER, 15. Jul 2003 17:40 | ||
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| No problem Gio. I understood exactly why you wrote that post and I think it's nuts too! I think the player who called all your heavy raising simply has no clue whatsoever and was just there to have fun. There's no other logical explanation for it....EVEN if you had nothing, he has to figure that you would at the *very least* have him outkicked! Just try to shake it off buddy, and laugh! Take care, 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: NL TOURNEY HAND, Giocatore, 15. Jul 2003 17:50 | ||
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| One more thing . . . it was NOT a bad beat story as that fool suggested because all I ended up with was ace high. The purpose of the original post was to invite constructive criticism of my play and to demonstrate how many ridiculously bad players there are, even in a $100 tournament. Thanks again 4 POKER and buona fortuna. | ||
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