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Server Time: 11/21/2008 11:11:53 PM PACIFIC |
 Question about Q 7 offsuit on button, flintsword, 14. Jul 2003 22:35 | ||
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| There are four players left in the tournament, I am on the button, the player before me has folded and I have Q 7 offsuit facing two players. I have more chips than the SB by a factor of ten and (alas) I already don't remember what the BB had, but it was about the same as me. The first player on the SB has been going all-in about 50% of the time meaning to me that he could hold a hand as low as JT offsuit. The second player in the BB is as tight as a drum. I call to see the flop, the SB goes all-in, the BB folds. In light of my chip stack, I decide to call and I win against his 66, hitting X77. Boy! Did I ever get a dumptruckload of abuse from this player! To hear him talk, I was the biggest fish since Moby. I try to be an objective player and asked myself, ... "What if he is right?" Was I right given the circumstances to call his all-in? I was using as guidance Paul Samuel's article where you can calculate the probable range of a player's hand from the percentage of hands he raises. Critiques are appreciated. Also, from the "really good players out there", ... What other information is missing to give you guys the necessary background to answer this question better? This particular player got incredibly abusive, which I put down to bubble-boy frustration, but I am curious to know if my call has merit or if I should have folded in this situation. I came 2nd in this tournament. Thanks in advance! flintsword | ||
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| Re: Question about Q 7 offsuit on button, MozMan, 14. Jul 2003 22:41 | ||
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| Hey flint- Generally, I've learned that Q7o really is not a good hand to play. But, as you are in the hand already, and this particular player was known to push all-in with almost anything, AND his stack-size was so small compared to yours, the call was probably a good one. As far as him berating you, IMHO, I think this means he was the fish. A good and experienced player will let it go, even under the circumstances. -Moz "The reports of my assimilation are greatly exaggerated." | ||
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| Re: Question about Q 7 offsuit on button, flintsword, 14. Jul 2003 22:49 | ||
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| You have "twigged" my curiousity Moz. What are the reasons that you have heard that Q 7 offsuit is "generally" not a good hand to play? I ask the question because I am unaware of any "general" "gritting of teeth" against Q 7 off. Details would be appreciated. flintsword | ||
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| Re: Question about Q 7 offsuit on button, Dr_Monkey, 15. Jul 2003 05:16 | ||
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| These are my reasons for not liking Q7o. 1. Not suited - no chance for a flop. 2. 4 card gap - no chance for str8. 3. 7 is pretty weak kicker. 4. Any A or K on the flop/board probably beats you. These are my general reasons why I wouldn't play Q7o. However, in your case, I probably would have raised pre-flop. You have a fat stack. The BB has a same size stack but being super tight, he would only call with a great hand. Plus as the chip leaders, you two could probably check it to the river if no one called. The SB, having 66, probably would have called your raise. As anger as he got when you beat him leads me to believe that he thought his 66 was unbeatable. Unfortunately, his small stack makes him a target. As big stack, you have to put him all in regardless of if you bet or raised pre-flop. on 14. Jul 2003 22:49 flintsword wrote: > You have "twigged" my curiousity Moz. What are the reasons that you have heard that Q 7 > offsuit is "generally" not a good hand to play? I ask the question because I am unaware of > any "general" "gritting of teeth" against Q 7 off. Details would be appreciated. > flintsword | ||
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| Re: Question about Q 7 offsuit on button, MozMan, 15. Jul 2003 08:18 | ||
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| Q7o is one of those tricky hands that feels better than it is. Don't get me wrong, I will ***rarely*** play it to steal, but it is a real gamble at best. I will only attempt it if I have an unwaivering read that tells me the blind is dead in the water, or if I've had some table history that tells me he's really afraid of me. Look at it this way, if you attempt a steal, the blind is either going to have trash and fold, or he is going to have big cards or a pair and call. If you try to steal with Q7o, and he calls, you are almost certainly the dog. The Q is good, not great. There are too many over cards out there that can beat it. In addition, the 7 is poison. Even if you make the case that it's a medium card (which you can), then it's the smallest of the mediums. At any rate, this is not a hand to be ignored, but it is a dangerous hand and should be played only with caution. -Moz "The reports of my assimilation are greatly exaggerated." | ||
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| Re: Question about Q 7 offsuit on button, Mark, 15. Jul 2003 08:36 | ||
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| Yeah, I hate Q7 (suited or not). It is one of those hands that loses alot of pots, and unless you hit the flop very hard, you will most certainly be chasing. Some of you may remember my recent post about playing garbage in the Small Blind. This hand would fit into that category, but i don't like it as much as 2 smaller rags. The Q is high enough that it is likely someone else will pair it, and you will be out kicked. Mark | ||
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| Re: Question about Q 7 offsuit on button, Schuster, 14. Jul 2003 22:53 | ||
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| What were the blinds in relation to his stack size? Given that the blind has been going all in a lot, then it's safe to say that on average, you aren't too bad of a dog to win. And since you have 10 times his chips, you can probably afford to gamble. I probably would have made the call too, but know that you will likely lose this one more times than you will win it. Hopefully the blinds and your call already in the pot were enough to balance it out. Lee | ||
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| Re: Question about Q 7 offsuit on button, flintsword, 14. Jul 2003 23:02 | ||
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| Good question and information I should have provided. By then it was 100/200 and his stack would not have handled more than two turns. Thanks for the specific question! I should have provided that critical information. flintsword | ||
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| Re: Question about Q 7 offsuit on button, shorn, 15. Jul 2003 05:01 | ||
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| Flint- I don't like the limp play after knowing that the SB wasn't going to last. I wouldn't risk chips on this hand that will be more of use when you get heads up or three-way with the remaining players. Let the SB blind off and don't risk any more. In fact, if I were to play the hand from the button, I would have raised to try to take control, but in this case since he is desperate, that wasn't the move. IMO, calling was the worst option. However, once he went all-in I don't think your call was a terrible play. You had the chance to bust him without risking a significant portion of your stack. I just wouldn't have called and gotten myself to that decision. | ||
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| Re: Question about Q 7 offsuit on button, flintsword, 15. Jul 2003 06:39 | ||
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| I thought about taking control. You may be right about the limp call being weak. In context of my play during the tournament, I don't think the BB would get involved without a top hand if I raised. I guess I was looking to give an opportunity for SB to chance going all-in (since I must assume he has pegged the BB as a very tight player apt to fold on an all-in) and if I raised he could fold and live to fight another day. The blinds would get him soon in any case. Sounds to me like excuses ... :) I am going to have to think about this Shorn. I suppose when you get right down to it, Q7o as a limp call to make sure that the SB's cards see the light of day and the player sees the door was the play. Is it a good play though? I think that if I had RAISED Q7o I would have been on centre grill at the UPF BBQ, ... and for good reason. Hard to explain, ... I could "play" Q7o, ... but would have been real reluctant in this position to raise it. Give it some thought. If indeed the "better" play is to raise, this is PRECISELY on of those playing modifications I need to understand to play better. I appreciate your comments! flintsword | ||
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| Re: Question about Q 7 offsuit on button, shorn, 15. Jul 2003 06:58 | ||
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| Hey, I am no expert NL player. So certainly I would like to know what others think too (Andrew Wells particularly, but Paul Stine also and stdioh too). I guess my thoughts are in order: fold, raise, call. I think folding is the best play. Two reasons for this: (1) if the SB raises, let the BB deal with it and hope that he has a huge hand and calls him down. if not, the SB has effectively won a miniscule amount of both your stack totals and you can pursue him again with a better holding. (2) Sure, it would be great to bust him out now. But, he could wake up with a big hand too, so why waste your $$ on such a marginal holding when you will need it later for 3-way play agains the other bigs. You seem pretty confident that he will be blinded off eventually, so sit back and watch it happen unless you have a big hand yourself. Raising: If he has total crap, you can get him to give it up. And, as you stated before, the BB will not call unless he has something so his blind is likely there for the taking. The only dangers here are that the SB is the short stack so he may go all-in with anything marginal to try and double through. And, the BB may wake up with a big hand and you don't want to challenge another big stack to try and improve your money standing. Calling: Again, I respect your play based on your other posts, but i think this is the worst option. You state you want his cards to see the light of day. I disagree. In the situation you have set up, you don't want to give him any action at all where you aren't the favorite simply BECAUSE he will blind off soon. You are giving him the chance to see a cheap flop or raise all-in and potentially make you fold without seeing anything. I do agree that when you limped you should do so with the idea that you would call his all-in raise; if not, then you are just wasting valuable chips. Anyway, this was a good one to look at and it emphasizes the decisions that you have to make in NL tourny play tat you never see in any limit game. That is why NL is so fascinating and challenging (to me anyway). Steve | ||
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| Re: Question about Q 7 offsuit on button, 4 POKER, 15. Jul 2003 02:39 | ||
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| You limped in with Q-7......ok, not the greatest holding but knowing that the SB is relatively low on chips and the BB is a very tight player with about the same chips as yourself.....(without relating this to the outcome).........you are now giving yourself the chance to bust out the small stack (SB) without commiting too many of your own chips if the BB decides to make a move pre-flop, because if he does make a move, knowing how tight he is and for the main reason, that he has the same chip count as you....you'd have to fold your hand. But just by having the position button allows you to get a clearer decision on what to do here. So once the SB pushes all-in and the BB now folds, I think you are committed to the hand and you *should* be trying to knock him out of the tournament.....especially knowing that there were just the 4 of you left and they were only paying 3 spots. If he only has a small amount of chips, even if you don't beat him here, you won't be putting your own stack at that much of a risk anyway. And for those reasons, I think your call was correct. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Question about Q 7 offsuit on button, GKI, 15. Jul 2003 05:25 | ||
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| The problem here for me is your reliance on Paul Samuel's article (Pokerpages 12/27/02 from how you described it). While it is useful, his raising criteria are based on a full ring game, and so basing calls on them when 4-handed is setting yourself up for problems. | ||
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| Re: Question about Q 7 offsuit on button, flintsword, 15. Jul 2003 06:29 | ||
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| GKI, Good point. Paul Samuel's article did help me in the beginning of the game to set him on lower playing standards of cards. When we are down to four players, hand selection changes, and if anything, his "lower standards" at the beginning of the game are more appropriate now. 4 players is a new environment. Paul's article and even my observation that he has lower playing standards are no longer relevant, since lower cards are now marginally playable short-handed. I need new tools short handed. Thank you for the observation. I DID think about Paul's article in this situation and your post has shown that at this point of the game, it should not be a useful tool. Thanks! flintsword | ||
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| Re: Question about Q 7 offsuit on button, mroban, 15. Jul 2003 07:58 | ||
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| I don't have anything new to add about the hand as I agree with most of what has been written (for the record, I would either have folded or, if planned on playing the hand, would have made a pot size raise with the big stack). But with regard to his comments - since when was 66 the holy nuts? You called, so you were playing something. Going all in with 66 is highly dubious in that situation especially against a big stack that is obviously trying to knock me out. He had the chance to see the flop and run away if he didn't make his set. He had to know you were likely to be holding at least one overcard. At best he was a small favorite and got broke going all in. If anyone should be berated it should be your opponent. Lousy play by a bad player if you ask me. | ||
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| Re: Question about Q 7 offsuit on button, SendMoney, 15. Jul 2003 09:55 | ||
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| If you had 10 times more than the SB and there are 4 players left you are pretty much justified to try to bust him out with any two cards, depending on the blind levels. I was in a similar situation in a NL tourney, I had a big chip lead and the 3rd place player goes all in against my BB, the blinds were pretty big relative to the stacks so I elected to call with 72s since I had about 6,000 chips to his 1,200, he turns over AKs, but when a 7 and a 2 come on the flop with no A or K, I bust him out. I'm not sure if he complained but I didn't really care regardless - and with 7,200 out of the total 10,000 at the table I ended up knocking out the 2nd place guy with some weak ace and took down 1st place. | ||
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| Re: Question about Q 7 offsuit on button, shorn, 15. Jul 2003 10:15 | ||
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| OK, but I think we are talking apples to oranges here. Yes, you ad 10x the SB stack, but you were even with the BB who had yet to act so your decision wasn't the final one. Plus, if the SB is going to blind off soon anyway, why risk anything? Aren't you better off saving your chips for the real battle against the other two players? | ||
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