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Server Time: 11/21/2008 10:49:08 PM PACIFIC |
 Frustrated poker player, Mike812, 14. Jul 2003 10:50 | ||
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| I have had either a) the worst luck ever or b) I am the worst at playing poker. I have always played poker in the "real world", but I decided to try to play online about a month ago. Since that month, I have lost a couple hundred dollars playing online. For example, in the partypoker semi-final tournament. I had pocket kings, and a king shows up on the flop. This is after I re-raised pre flop and I re-raised after the flop. So, a guy stays in with like Q-9 off suit and ends up beating me with a straight on the river. Lately, I have been playing a lot of low limit games, and I seem to always get burned on the river. I usually play $0.25/0/50 or $25 NL on UB. Do you guys recommend me playing these games or should I move up? I mean these people will stay in all the way to the end if they have one ace hoping that ace will show up. And what do you know the ace shows up. It seems like all the strategies I have learned just go out the window, its more of a free-for-all and the luckiest person wins the pot. I am hesitant to play higher games until I build up a higher bankroll. But it seems like I will never get there since I keep losing money playing lower limit games trying to break even. I am already a couple hundred dollars in the hole, and my losing streak seems to never end. Anyone have any advice or been in the same situation? After opening a UB account with $50 last week, I have $5.65 in my account. Just enough to play in the tournament on thursday. Any advice/suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Should I take some time off, read some more books? I am currently reading the new Phil Hellmuth book. Thanks alot UPF. Mike | ||
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| Re: Frustrated poker player, philly, 14. Jul 2003 11:32 | ||
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| Mike, I know it seems like the poker gods are toying with you but in the long run the people who are drawing out on you are your bread and butter. I learned something interesting watching Phil Helmuth play on the 80/160 holdem game at ub. Somebody beat him with an improbable draw (yes theres even idiots in high limit games). He calmly typed nice hand and proceeded to dismantle this player for the next hour or so until he left the table broke. Of course in the midst of a bad run it is difficult to think about the long haul, but it is the only thing that keeps us sane. -There are no bad beats, only temporary setbacks- -John Vorhaus- | ||
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| Re: Frustrated poker player, Mike812, 14. Jul 2003 11:44 | ||
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| Thanks Philly, I am still new to playing poker, so that is why I am stuck at the lower limit games. But I play a lot better in tournament style games. If I play ring style games, should I play at a higher limit? I figure if I have the patience, etc to do well in tournament games. Maybe I can play in mid to high limit games. I mean I know people will always chase, but does it happen as much in the higher games But, I like what you said about Phil Hellmuth. Yes you are right about losing that ONE hand to a player , it is kind of like loaning him my money and just getting it back later on. But, they always seem to leave after they score a big hand like that. But HOPEFULLY, my next post will be the long-awaited BROKE EVEN post! Thanks alot Philly Mike on 14. Jul 2003 11:32 philly wrote: > Mike, > I know it seems like the poker gods are toying with you but in the long run the > people who are drawing out on you are your bread and butter. I learned something > interesting watching Phil Helmuth play on the 80/160 holdem game at ub. Somebody > beat him with an improbable draw (yes theres even idiots in high limit games). He > calmly typed nice hand and proceeded to dismantle this player for the next hour or so > until he left the table broke. > > Of course in the midst of a bad run it is difficult to think about the long haul, > but it is the only thing that keeps us sane. > > -There are no bad beats, only temporary setbacks- > -John Vorhaus- www.pokeranon.com | ||
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| Re: Frustrated poker player, palman, 14. Jul 2003 12:41 | ||
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| I'm actually doing well in low limit poker nowadays online.... I am by no means an expert but here are some things that I've picked up that you just don't read in books. (I'm playing 1/2 shorthanded 6 player tables on party) but basically if you're sitting at a table... and 4-5 people are seeing every river.... and there's not a lot of raisers, but more calling stations on draws, your style of play has to drastically change. With SO many people calling and seeing every turn, you have the odds to draw a lot more, and your betting with say top pair is less effective. (although checking with it is even worse so you must do it) For example.... A flop like J 9 3..... and you have AJ. You're still the favorite..... but if 5 people are going to call every betting round (until the river..... hands like K10, 10-7, Q-8, gutshot draws.... actually have the correct (or close to it) drawing odds to call you down to the river. This is why you suffer more bad beats and it seems like the players don't get broke. They don't respect raises so you can't bluff them out. So this would be my suggestion to you..... play suited cards more often, almost every pocket pair (this is assuming a loose passive game as most low limit games are.... and if your table isn't, you can easily switch between a few tables and find one like this) The KEY and the way you'll make money over the others is by drawing with hands even if you get it that can easily not be the best hand. Going for gutshots with a 2 flush on the board with 6 callers just isnt profitable. A flop of 456 with you holding the 3 is another one. It's not open ended, because if a 7 falls someone likely has an 8. Position is the most important thing. In low limit you'll find PLENTY of people in early position who will lead out every round with mid pair when you have a strong hand, thus paying you off greatly by just calling and letting them bet for you, while you drag 5 unsuspecting victims who are drawing dead. A hand like AQ in low limit with a board of Q98 in early position is disasterous. You have to bet it because you can't give gutshots free draws... but people with Q8 or Q9 or 98 is very likely, and they'll just do the same to you and let you bet for them. The key to low limit is table analysis. It doesnt take long in low limit to know how a player plays. After an hour you should have most of the table figured out. If its loose and passive, its almost impossible to lose against many low limit players and you can essentially play any 2 cards (this is true 6 handed, not so much with a full ring) If its tight and aggressive find a new table (there are enough of them on party) And if its loose and aggressive just play strongly AFTER the flop and let them do the betting for you. Most people get in trouble when they try to get tricky and in raising contests with loose aggressive players that try to bluff alot. Sure raise some, but if you're in position and they're willing to bet for ya, let them. My strategy involving playing drawing hands and even chasing low pair (with a lot of passive callers) will cause more swings, but it shouldn't take long to be profitable. Your first thought as a poker player who's read anything has been "don't be loose because thats what bad players do and If I do what they do then I'm falling into a trap" Focus less on preflop play, and really play solidly post flop and you'll be a winner. | ||
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| Re: Frustrated poker player, Mike812, 14. Jul 2003 13:04 | ||
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| Palman Thanks for the advice. I followed your first advice on how to play tournaments and it has done me wonders, and I intend to follow on this also. I love playing on the 6 person table b/c you ahve a 1 in 6 chance of winning instead of the 1 in 10. But on to the questions. I have been playing tourney and did well in them, so I decided to switch to ring games which is where I have been losing. After reading your post, I realized that I CANNOT play super-tight. I'm thinking of taking a couple days/weeks off b/c I am on a months ass kicking worst tilt that wont go away. I think you hit the nail on the head, and this is why I never profit. I fold, fold, fold, re-raise when I have a good hand. And maybe like one person stays in and folds after seeing the flop. So I make maybe $2 after wasting $5 in blinds (hypothetically speaking). And that is combined with the people that stay in and end up drawing to a straight or flush that kicks my ass too. So, this time around before I deposit anymore money, I want to be 100% confident on a gameplan for me. So, obviously top pair is not that effective with a lot of callers so when do you know to lay down a hand? Or do you just call all the way until the end and hope you have the best hand with top pair? Or do you fold once you think someone has hit their draw? Also, do re-raises have no effect on other players? I think this is very true b/c it just takes more money out my pocket if they hit their draw. I actually think people laugh with a re-raise. Its kind of like "hey, thanks for putting more money into the pot buddy" I just do not know when to fold when playing in these types of games. What is the lowest suited connector that you play? And lets saw you do have middle or top pair, do you still call all the way to the end if you think everyone missed their draw? The toughest situation for me is to have top pair on the flop and have two overcards on the turn or river. What would you do in that situation? But Palman thanks for the advice. I havent applied it yet but it has already improved my way of thinking and game play. Any more would be grealty appreciated. btw, what is your screename on party? Thanks Mike www.pokeranon.com | ||
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| Re: Frustrated poker player, palman, 14. Jul 2003 14:44 | ||
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| I'm also going to have to say my advice isn't based on enough hours of experience to feel overly confident that someone else is following it. I've recently done them on party just say the last week and have made QUITE a bit at it, but it could just be I was incredibly lucky and played against awful players. (and I had a couple of months of experience at paradise with 5 handed play, but I was a loser , but playing at 3/6 with better players, etc) My suggestion with taking time off..... Might I suggest just playing on the weekends. The players seem to be MUCH worse. Over the past month, I'm probably 5 times more profitable per day on the weekends than on the weekdays (averaging 8 hours a day the past month) Basically the answer to all of your questions are it really depends on the opponent. After about 30 minutes of watching them, just basically see how much respect their raises should get. The great part about the loose games is you see a showdown basically every hand. Most low limit players know their raises dont get much respect, so will do it with monsters, but don't let one or two monsters make you think you should respect all his raises. Few players do the "1 or 2 bluffs" per hour sklansky maxim in low limit. Either they bluff or they don't. Here's my experience: Yesterday I cost myself 70 dollars in 3 pots at 6 handed 1/2 by folding at the river with the best hand. One was a pot where the board was A Q 6 x (don't remember the last cards) but there was no flush draw and I don't think much of a straight draw, maybe an obscure one. I held Q6 for 2 pair. Someone bet on the turn, another raised, and I called and so did the other guy. Then on the river the same thing happenned, bet, raise, so I figured a set or a bigger 2 pair involving an Ace, thought I was saving myself 2 big bets, and low and behold, they both just had aces (one had a 4 kicker, the other a jack) This was a 30 dollar pot I believe. Same thing happenned about twice where I folded the best hand on the river. So of course I swore never to fold a river if the pot was large again, and those times I was beat. Thus I would just say look at the size of the pot, and compare that with the chances your opponents are 1) awful 2) bluffing. when folding something like top pair. About raising/re-raising. I really don't do it until the river. (if you're in last position at the river and 3 people have bet/called and you raise, on average 2 of them will call) Especially if I'm in last position and people ahead of me are willing to bet. (If no one has bet, and you're in last position, your bet also wont get respect because it will look like you're trying to steal it, so just bet your big hands in this situation) Raising will either get people out of the pot that would still continue to call 1 bet on future rounds, and it will also force you to be the one initiating the betting, and if you're beat you'll just have to pay more by their re-raise at some point. Early position I don't like to do it either, because then you're forced to bet on each round, and if you're beat you'll have no idea. Now say you have a good hand, say a set and you're first to act. then you just bet out, because it'd be disastrous for it to be checked around on any betting round. Slowplay less/ bluff less. If the flop comes QQ4, and you have a queen, you're first to act and you check..... If it gets checked around then you bet on the turn and its like a bright light saying "I have a queen" If you bet first it may look like you have the 4 and are just trying to get people out that didnt catch a piece of the flop. Even if you check, and someone bets behind you, they may check on subsequent more expensive rounds which is disastrous. In this situation, if you have the queen and you bet on the flop..... And people call, its EXPECTED that you bet on the turn. So no one will really drop out after that. Part of my strategy is that I play a lot of "not premium" hands... so after people see that, my bets get no respect at all. Which is fine by me... because even if they did get respect as you know from your experience, people in these limits will call a tight player, so being known as a tight player only hurts, doesnt help. In the type of game I'm suggesting (6 handed game with 4 ppl seeing the flop, and little preflop raising) I'll play any suited connector. any pocket pair, heck I see about 75% of the flops. The only really awful hands are stuff like Q2. 6 handed I don't worry about how high the flush is, because its not that likely someone else has it. Anything that has SOMEWHAT straight possibility I play as well. The key is I play crap preflop, but play them well after the flop. When you have top pair on the flop, and overcards come above you... thats a tough one. If its an ace, thats the toughest one, but basically just think about how often he bluffs. | ||
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| Re: Frustrated poker player, palman, 14. Jul 2003 14:52 | ||
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| Just for clarifications.... with this strategy, it is VERY swingy, but at the end of the session I've been up considerably. At 1/2 for example, 50 dollar swings are frequent 6 handed. My suggestion would be try the 6 handed .25/50 cent at ultimate bet. (never done it, but it will give you plenty of experience in playing this style, against loose opponents, and shouldnt hurt your bankroll) My ID on Party is luckykid. | ||
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| Re: Frustrated poker player, Mike812, 14. Jul 2003 18:45 | ||
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| Palman your advice has helped me a lot since you have been posting. I am taking a total break from playing for a couple weeks. I'm still a broke college student, and my paychecks go to student accessories, life, beer etc. I do not want to lose my hard-worked money on poker when I can not afford it. So, for now I am taking a total break and waiting when I can afford to deposit $50 more into my account. But, I think you are right about playing times. During the weeknights, I almost always lose. I think all the people that have salaried jobs (I only make $10 an hour right now through my summer job) can sign online after work and drop $50 to have a fun night of poker. And they do not care if they lose or win, I find that playing during the weekday while everyone is at work (or in my situation playing during my lunch break) is profitable. And playing on the weekend is profitable also. I almost lose always playing at night, and my roommate agrees. He opened an account and is only profitable during the day while losing all the money he makes during the day playing at night. Hopefully in acouple weeks, I will not go broke AGAIN. Its not a great feeling, I have learned alot by practicing online but it sucks that I lose all of my money for it. Thanks alot though Mike www.pokeranon.com | ||
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| Re: Frustrated poker player, palman, 14. Jul 2003 19:26 | ||
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| Just for some encouragement....... I'm a college student as well, 22, just got done my 4th year (in a masters program) I had an internship where I made a good bit of money, and always had wanted to play poker, so I set aside some money, and played on paradise. Well, I lost a lot more than I should have, played in games too tough, with too high of a limit, and basically got broke as a result of it. I took a good 2 month break (due to basically having no money, and just dejected from losing money) I've always had a thing for gambling and losing a good amount of money really had a negative impact on me. I still kept up with some reading, and read on here people saying how fishy party was.... And one day my dad (who plays cards) lent me some money, and I decided "hey I'll throw down 100 at party, see what happens" I had a good start on party (played just sit n go's, which I knew I could profit from, before my problem was playing games and limits I couldn't handle) cashed in 13 of first 16 sit n go's (even 1st's through 3rd's) And a month later, I've finally made up all that I lost a couple months ago as of today actually. I'm especially happy about it because I made it back at limits 1/3 of the size with which I lost it. So as of now I'm even, but with the experience to hopefully continue the winning ways. The first month of the summer I had no job, and could play all day, and it has worked for me so far. Going broke is the best way for someone to learn bankroll management, and turn someone's love for gambling to view poker as a job and not act on impulses. | ||
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| Re: Frustrated poker player, Guru, 14. Jul 2003 13:54 | ||
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| Mike, I know how you're feeling, I've been there. Let me suggest one or two things that may help. I just recently have started to get good enough that I'm breaking even or coming out ahead most sessions. 1) The subject of party poker fishes has come up a lot here and I'll tell you one thing I did. The problem with a whole table of fishes is that if you're up against five of them, it seems that at least one hits every pot. I would recommend that you look for tables that are less fishy for the time being. At UB you can look at the flop rate of the tables and I usually pick one with the lowest flop rate or you can see average pot size and look for one with the lowest pot size average. It's less fishy. While it will make you less overall money in the long run, it plays straighter which is probably good for you for now. You will have fewer swings and more predictable opponents. Use these less fishy tables while you're getting better at the game and then go back and clean up on the fishes when you get good enough. 2) I also tend to be a better tourney player than a ring player, but I don't translate the two as being the same. Ring games just play a little differently than tourney's do. I would stick to the lower limit ring games for now and keep practicing. I hate to say it, but it takes losing some money to learn. Experience is the best teacher. | ||
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| Re: Frustrated poker player, SendMoney, 14. Jul 2003 15:36 | ||
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| One strategy I've found that works pretty well is to bet or raise your better drawing hands, especially from late position. When you bet the play is somewhat deceptive, usually a bet means top pair and a raise means two pair or better. When your straight or flush card hits you simply keep betting, and you might get paid off handsomely. When you miss you'd be smart to check behind or maybe keep betting if you think your opponent will fold. It's true they'll suck out on your, but sometimes you have to hit that river straight also. | ||
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| Re: Frustrated poker player, palman, 14. Jul 2003 16:54 | ||
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| Definately... and in loose games you actually have the odds that its a profitable bet even without the possibility of them folding. When you hit the flush card, since you bet beforehand that doesnt scare the opponent as much as someone who called everything, and then bet when the flush card comes. Its even funny when your opponent uses the card used to make your flush to try to bluff and scare you off | ||
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| Re: Frustrated poker player, 4 POKER, 14. Jul 2003 17:53 | ||
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| Hey Mike, I think if you have managed to do well in the regular B&M's but are currently not able to have good results with on-line poker, then play where you feel the most comfortable and are able to profit from. On-line poker can be profitable but I think that with so many new and/or inexperienced players who play on-line, may shook you a little bit when you see how bad they really can play. For many who play on-line, it's there first time ever....they've never set foot in a live card room before.....everyone is just learning.....trying to get experience....or to just have fun, but whatever......I'm not sure just how much experience you have with poker.... but the more you gain and the more quality poker books you read.....you'll probably improve yourself. Try to play in games that suit you, really loose, passive, whatever.....maybe playing a little higher would be better, but that will depend on your bankroll as well, so hang in there because even though poker can be very profitable when you chose to play in games where you are better than your opponents......it *still* can be frustrating at times. Don't give up.....just put in some more hours. If you can hold your own in the B&M's, then with maybe a little more hours of on-line play, you may be able to show the same results. Best of luck to you, Mike. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Frustrated poker player, Mike812, 14. Jul 2003 18:37 | ||
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| Thanks everyone for the advice! I knew I was doing something wrong by coming out down about 75% of the time. First, I lost a lot of money losing tournament games, but after reading posts on this site I have broke even playing tournaments. So, I decided to play ring games and have lost considerably at them. I have found one problem with my game and that is only playing premium hands, and having everyone either fold when I have the nuts or call me until they hit their draw. Bluffing has not been my strong area b/c it seems that I always bluff at the wrong times. Right now, I know if I play I will still lose because I have been in the worst tilts, and I will be playing with "scared" money. I will be more focused on winning the money I lost than making good decisions. So, after taking everyone's advice I will change my style of play in ring games, and take a break from poker. But, during this break I will be studying up and posting on this forum to learn more. Thanks everyone! Mike www.pokeranon.com | ||
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| Re: Frustrated poker player, Wren, 15. Jul 2003 09:06 | ||
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| We got the chance to play together the other day (remember the beat I pulled on you with the K3? :) so let me offer you some thoughts: First of all, some general notes: Bad runs will happen in poker. If you want to be a winning player, you have to accept that these runs WILL happen. On that note, when you're running bad, don't tilt - if you're still feeling well, playing well and the table's good, stick around. Otherwise, get up and leave the table. - Second, (and this is something that took me a long time to clue into) online poker is more likely to put a player on tilt than B&M poker. Why? Stdioh clued me into this one - since more hands are dealt online, you get "more beats per hour" online as well. IMO, humans can only take a certain frequency of beats before feeling a little steamy. Personally, I have to check myself every once in awhile when I'm playing online for signs of steam. I virtually never steam when I'm playing live, but I frequently feel at least minor tilt online. - Finally - yes, you will get more implicit collusion playing with absolutely clueless players. With SOOO many players always fishing around, it's likely that SOMEONE will put a beat on you. I'm constantly shaking my head at the moves I see people make at the microlimit tables. I try to make notes on them, but then they throw me for a loop and do something really strange. For example, I'll see someone limp with AQ preflop, and then NOT bet an A-high flop! So I'll mark "passive" in the notes section for them. Then, they'll go and raise a river on a board of A589J holding something like J6. So, in general, I apply "Wreny's rule for bad poker players" and just bet/raise for value against them. Of course, the value of a hand that's likely to win changes depending on the number of players in the hand. This is why you have to expect that your big pairs and two pairs on the flop will get cracked quite frequently at a table like this. What you really want to do at these tables is play the drawing hands - suited aces, big-ish suited connectors, any pair (provided the table's not too aggressive). When you hit a big draw or a set, DON'T be cute and slowplay it - bet the crap out of it, and they'll all stay in and pay you off. Alright, now some more specifics on your play. First of all, please don't take this the wrong way, but I could tell from playing with you that you are a little inexperienced. For example, the hand where I had K3 vs your AA. You raised preflop, I called with K3s in the BB, and I think one other player was in. I hit a flop of KJx and opted to checkraise your flop bet. The other guy folded. You just called, so I thought my hand was good (I had you on something like a medium pair, QQ or AJ). On the turn, I hit a 3 for two pair. I bet, and again you just called. So naturally, I thought I was definitely in the lead. The river was a T. I bet, you raised, and I almost mucked right there, 'cause I thought hmmm - set? Broadway? But the pot was big so I called and you showed AA. Let me just come out and say that you played this hand poorly. The correct play would have been to 3-bet the flop. I'm not sure what your line of thinking was there, but AA unimproved is NOT strong enough to get tricky with. You would like to take the pot down right there. If you 3-bet, I would have either folded right there, or taken a card off and then folded if I didn't improve. As it turned out, I did improve, so I was pretty much stuck until the river, but that's beside the point. Raising the river there was bad play as I could have easily had two pair or better from the way I was playing, and you're most likely not going t get me out with a raise. There's just one example. In general, I found that you were playing a little bit too passive and weak, considering it was a shorthanded game. With 6 players or less, you want to be raising a lot preflop with holdings that would be marginal in a full-handed game (for example, KJo, ATo). You can bluff more profitably in these games too, provided you pick your spots well. IMO, if you're used to full-handed games and you've been playing a lot of shorthanded games online, it's understandable that you've been losing money, as you're not yet used to adjusting to the different nature of the games. Anyway, just some food for thought. If I could offer some advice (and if you haven't done this already), pick up a couple books on Hold'em strategy. Lee Jones' "Winning Low limit Hold'em" is a good one for dealing with loose, fishy opponents, and Sklansky's "Hold'em Poker for Advanced PLayers" is a must read before venturing into trickier, tougher games. Furthermore, just keep practising! The microlimit online games are a great choice, because you're getting good experience without putting too much money at risk. If you want a more "solid" game at this limit, do what someone else already suggested - check the flop % and average pot for each table, and sit down at a table where these two values are low. You'll get a bit more of a "sane" game this way (but after awhile, you'll be seeking those crazy, fishy tables again - trust me ;) And finally, keep track of your results. It's imperative that you do this if you want to determine whether or not you're a winning player. Well, there's my 2 cents worths. Good luck to ya, and maybe we'll run into each other again at the tables! | ||
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| Re: Frustrated poker player, TKarrde, 15. Jul 2003 09:18 | ||
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| TKarrde "The next best thing to playing and winning, is playing and losing." | ||
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| Re: Frustrated poker player, TKarrde, 15. Jul 2003 09:18 | ||
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| Good post. Good info. TKarrde "The next best thing to playing and winning, is playing and losing." | ||
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