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Server Time: 11/22/2008 1:37:36 AM PACIFIC |
 Your opinions please, mkpoker, 13. Jul 2003 20:32 | ||
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| Just got through a horrid session of 3/6 B&M HE. Bad beats like you wouldn't believe (AA cracked by an gutshot straight on the river...ugh!). Feel OK 'cause I played well, but it's small solace. I'd like opinions on one hand I'm not sure if played right. The question: should I have folded or called to the river (I called). I'm dealt As5s on the buttom. 4 callers to me, I limp in, SB folds. BB checks. Flop comes Ad2c3h . Normally, I'd fold an A-low hand, but the pot is checked to me, so I bet and get a two calls (one from BB). 4th street is 5d (giving me top two pair). There's also a flush draw on the board, as well as an inside straight. BB bets, MP folds. I raise (both for value and to force BB to pay for draws). He reraises. This rocks my confidence more than a little. If he already has a 4, I'm beat (unless I fill up on the river). I think long and hard about calling the raise and then do so. River is 9c. BB bets. I think long and hard about folding, but I make the call. He turns over K4, for the winning straight. Had I folded to his reraise, I would have saved 2bb. Also, I could have folded to his turn bet (saving 4bb) or just called it (saving 1bb, assuming I would have called on the river also). Did I play this too aggressively on the turn and river? | ||
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| Re: Your opinions please, Mark, 13. Jul 2003 21:36 | ||
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| Calling his bets really depends on what you know of him and his play. It is one of those "it depends" situations. Because of the way the hand played out, it is purely a judgement call. Mark | ||
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| Re: Your opinions please, Schuster, 13. Jul 2003 22:22 | ||
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| Was this a good player or not? Was he a tricky player? By him betting into you on the turn, he's representing that he can beat top pair, top kicker. If you raise, he's only going to fold if he's losing, and he's going to reraise if he's winning. He probably will have a good idea where you stand after you raise if he's holding a 4. Either you're chopping, or you're full of it. If you're going to call this to the river, then you're assuming he has a worse hand than yours, and the only hands those could be are bluffs, more or less, with the possible exclusion of a set (that is a scary board if he has one). If you suspect him of betting with an inferior hand, just call and let him try again on the river. I think just calling or folding here is the biggest +EV play here, depending on your read of the player. After you raised and he came back at you, I think if you are facing a reasonable player and planning on calling down the river, I would cap it at 4 bets. He will figure you for another 4, or perhaps 4-6 for the higher straight. Either way, most players would check down the river, figure they're either chopping it or they're beaten. In that case, you can check it down too and lose the same amount if you lose, or you can get an extra bet if you fill. Then again, if this is the typical party poker fish that has complete blinders on about everything but their own hand, then this is completely off. =) Lee | ||
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| Re: Your opinions please, Swagman, 13. Jul 2003 22:38 | ||
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| Case of compounded errors goin in with A,5. This is exactly what happens with any type of Ace Low. I can't emphize this enough. ACE LOW ACE LOW ACE MIDDLE ACE MIDDLE MUCK MUCK MUCK MUCK MUCK!!!! And as for as making everyone pay to make their draw, it is likely someone has you beat already. And about you thinking a long time on calling that re-raise. You didn't think long enough. | ||
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| Re: Your opinions please, Schuster, 13. Jul 2003 23:24 | ||
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| > Case of compounded errors goin in with A,5. This is exactly what happens with any > type of Ace Low. I can't emphize this enough. ACE LOW ACE LOW ACE MIDDLE ACE MIDDLE > MUCK MUCK MUCK MUCK MUCK!!!! I disagree here. I think both the preflop call and the flop bet were warranted. If someone has an ace with a better kicker, they would likely bet it themselves and he can muck in a heartbeat. Given that the action was checked to him with that board, I'd say a bet on the flop is the way to go, he is likely to have the best hand unless he is checkraised, and then it's an easy fold. There are times when playing Ace-rag with just top pair is the best EV play. Lee | ||
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| Re: Your opinions please, Swagman, 13. Jul 2003 23:53 | ||
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| I would limp in with A,5 Sooted as well, But I'm merely stating issues of compounding thinking if u don't know how to play after the flop hits. And this is exactly why players take questionable cards too far. Let me illustrate. Player X thinking pattern: Error 1) limp in with A,5 sooted. possble Ace high pair and possible flush draw nutz. Error 2) flop comes A,2,4. Player X now has an Ace (ace that is very likely beaten by any other ace) but cuz he has a possible straight he sees another card Error 3) He catches the 5 giving someone a straight, him top 2 pair, and a flush still to come. Error 4) But then cuz he thinks he can get the boat he sees the river. It blimey compounded errors. This is how so many players lose money by taking hands too far. | ||
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| Re: Your opinions please, Ron, 13. Jul 2003 22:55 | ||
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| I don't think so, but that's the problem when you allow the blinds to limp/check in to see the flop. You cannot put them on anything. He could have had a set of 3s, flush draw or a medium ace. So, I definitely believe you have to call the river. Maybe you should look at how aggressively you played the turn bet? | ||
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| Re: Your opinions please, DJpoker, 13. Jul 2003 23:19 | ||
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| Hey MK, I agree with Swagman that Ax is almost always a MUCK, but since you were on the button and had 4 callers, it was appropriate to limp in. I would have also made the position bet on the flop (even with the weak kicker). It did get 2 players out. My problem comes with the turn. First of all, the BB check-called the flop and is now betting out. Since he is BB he could have anything. I would put him on a set or straight. I doubt he would bet the flush draw since he knows you will bet it for him. Secondly, you are beat by many hands (straight 4 or 6-4 and any set). I would simply call on 4th street. I do understand you raising to see how strong BB was, but his reraise obviously told you u were in trouble. From that point on, you were donating (unless of course you know the player to be a big bluffer, but I've found that at 3-6 most people don't bluff for fear of being called down anyway). Oh well, sorry about your rough session. It sounds like you have already figured it out for next time. Good luck. DJpoker | ||
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| Re: Your opinions please, 4 POKER, 13. Jul 2003 23:24 | ||
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| Good post DJ. I agree with your views on the turn play. I also think that it's ok to limp in on the button with Ace little suited. The flop he got was not the greatest but I still would have thrown in a bet after everyone had checked it to me, but......... once the turn card brought the straight, I agree with what you had to say on this matter and would not have raised him with two pair. If the other player already has the straight (which he did), then drawing to a full-house after he had raised him was drawing pretty slim IMO and by just calling in this spot will save you bets, because once he now raises you back, you must be able to throw it away....right on the turn. If you're not going to throw it away and draw to only a few cards left in the deck, than I think you'd be better off $$ to just call his bet on the turn opposed to raising it and costing yourself extra bets. | ||
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| Re: Your opinions please, Orleans Ed, 14. Jul 2003 05:43 | ||
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| I'm guessing that you had a difficult time convincing yourself BB caught a straight, or had a set, because there were no pairs on the board. The critical point in the hand of course, as you indicated, was being reraised at the turn. Even a bad player wouldn't unconsciously or frivolously reraise at that point. You probably instinctively knew you lost. But, heads up and committed to the hand, it's understandable to play it out. I don't see any mistakes that could be corrected for a similar situation in the future, it was just a tough hand. Always mucking A-x i can't agree with. It's probably just a case of losing with that kind of hand being memorable. | ||
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| Re: Your opinions please, shorn, 14. Jul 2003 05:38 | ||
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| Unless this player is a total maniac, a re-raise on the turn in a 3-6 game means that the player has a made hand. You just don't see re-raise bluffs at this limit. So, next you need to figure what hands that he could have and with what likelihood. Here are the potential hands that I would put him on which he would re-raise you with: 64, A4, AA, 55. Now, you have to take them one by one and consider how likely they are. The most unlikely one is AA since he was pretty passive pre-flop. Additionally, re-raising with this hand once the str8 card hits is unlikely. More likely is that he calls your raise and check calls the river unless the board pairs. Second less likely (but not by much) is 64. This hand would generally be mucked on the flop to action unless the pot was laying decent odds. However, there are so many loose players out there that you can't discount it. That leaves A4 (or X4) and 55 which I think are close to a tie. So, now how many out do you potentiall have with each holding? AA: 0 outs since you tie with a 4 and lose with any other pair on board 64: 2 5's and 2 A's A4: 2 5's and 1 Ace 55: 2 A's So, at MOST, you have 4 outs and at best none. IMO, to continue playing this you need better than the 10.5 to one to call his re-raise. In these situations, I like to take away one of my potential outs and see if the pot is laying correctly for that to continue. So, in this case, you would need 14 to 1 or so to call. | ||
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| Re: Your opinions please, mongi, 14. Jul 2003 11:22 | ||
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| In a situation like this with a scary board and the blind leading out at you on the turn there is a good chance the BB has a made hand. By raising on the turn you create a situation where you may get reraised and have to muck your hand. I would call the turn bet and give myself the chance to hit my fullboat. There are certain players and hopefully you know who they are who would almost always go for a check-raise in this situation if they knew they had you beat. When people suddenly bet out on the turn it is usually either a semibluff bet or a made hand. In either situation I would just call to the river. | ||
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| Re: Your opinions please, PairTheBoard, 14. Jul 2003 13:36 | ||
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| On the Aces Up hand: The bet out on the turn could easily mean he hit a small two pair. So it's worth calling him down. But with any 4 making a straight you can't raise. imo | ||
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