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Server Time: 11/22/2008 1:36:27 AM PACIFIC |
 advice or help please, spawgan, 13. Jul 2003 09:13 | ||
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| I have started playing for about 3 months now. This weekend I got crushed and need to find out if I am playing these hands wrong or I just hit some incredibly bad luck to get some bad beats. Note - for all these hands I am playing 3-6-12 holdem, except for one which was in a tourney. First - I was on the button and got pocket 5s. Preflop there 5 calls and one raise. I called the raise to see if I can catch the set knowing if a 5 doesn't come on the flop then I fold and the 2 blinds fold. Flop comes 5-7-2 rainbow. The 5 callers all check, I put in a 3 dollar raise. Next card comes up qc, leaving a club flush draw. First bettor checks, 2nd puts in a bet one to my right calls. I put them at a pair of qs or two pair and don't want them drawing to the boat or a higher set then I have so I raise. Both call. River comes 9d - no flush. It is checked to me, I bet 12, I get raised by the player to my right I call. She had 6-8c and beat me with the str8. Second, I am in the SB, I had 9-10h. Pre flop there is no raisers. Flop comes Ac-Ah-Kh. There is one raise from the player on the button. I know he doesn't have 4 aces b/c I can see the hole cards of the player to my left and he has one A. Gut on the button was constantly raising the entire game with second pair on the board but only calling with top pair, so I call. Turn is 9d. There is one raise and I call it. River comes up Qh. There is one raise before the button, button calls so it is 24 to call. I raise to 34, all in for me. The two players call. First player had k-4c but the button had A-Q. He takes the pot w/ a boat. Third hand, I have A-8d. There is one raise pre-flop. flop is Ac-8h-Jd. There is one raise to my right, I reraise and he calls. It is now heads up. Turn is 6d, so the bettor puts in one bet and since I have top two pair, and am on a nut flush draw and there is no srt8 draw, I raise him, he calls. River is 3s. He checks, I bet the 12 max, he raises I call, he had pocket 8s. Last hand was in a tourney (NL HE) - the casino is having a 1000.00 but in tourney in the near future and they are running some satellites every so often when they get 10 people in that try for the satellite. I am 2 from the SB, get pocket KKs - I raise to double the blind, one before the button reraises, I call. Flop is K-X-2. I bet, one before the blind goes all in, I call. He has pocket 2s - river gets him his fourth 2. If I played these hands wrong, or I could have played them better, please let me know. I am trying to learn this game and while I cant find a coach like Varcony, I do know I can learn from more experienced players. This wiped out my bankroll until I can build it back up online. | ||
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| Re: advice or help please, SendMoney, 13. Jul 2003 10:49 | ||
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| "I was on the button and got pocket 5s. Preflop there 5 calls and one raise. I called the raise to see if I can catch the set knowing if a 5 doesn't come on the flop then I fold and the 2 blinds fold." I've learned the hard way that you should not call raises with small pairs such as 22-66, even if you can anticipate a multi-way pot. There are a number of reasons for this. First of all you won't hit your set on the flop most of the time. Second there is the threat of set over set, suppose you get a flop like K J 5 in a raised pot with 55 and the original raiser bets into it. At this point you're obliged to raise, but if you get re-raises can you fold? Of course not, now you're obliged to call or raise on the turn or river and hope the raiser has AK and not KK or JJ. Small sets will lose to straights and flushes like any other set, but they will also lose to bigger full houses often enough when the board pairs. You'd probably do yourself a big favor long term by committing to only playing high pairs in raised pots, multi-way or otherwise, and whether that standard is 77 or JJ that's a decision you'll have to make for yourself. "Second, I am in the SB, I had 9-10h. Pre flop there is no raisers. Flop comes Ac-Ah-Kh. There is one raise from the player on the button. I know he doesn't have 4 aces b/c I can see the hole cards of the player to my left and he has one A." I don't really see any good reason to chase a non-nut flush out of position here. With 9h10h you have no pair on the flop with a monster board showing, and your straight draw would be runner runner with lots of full house danger if a Q and J come on the turn and river. So basically you're down to the non-nut flush draw with a paired board on the flop. With hands like 9h10h you need to give yourself two ways to win, flops like 4 to a flush plus middle pair, or open-ended straight draw with backdoor flush possibilities, those are the flops you are looking for, AAK 4 flushes are not. Realize that a lot of people like to limp with AK, trying to trap hands like Axs or Kxs or even stronger hands into calling them all way usually losing to the top pair, top kicker. Also with your position if you hit your flush and it is the best hand and you bet it on the river you probably won't get paid off, and if it's not the best hand you will likely be raised. "Third hand, I have A-8d. There is one raise pre-flop. flop is Ac-8h-Jd. There is one raise to my right, I reraise and he calls. It is now heads up. Turn is 6d, so the bettor puts in one bet and since I have top two pair, and am on a nut flush draw and there is no srt8 draw, I raise him, he calls. River is 3s. He checks, I bet the 12 max, he raises I call, he had pocket 8s." The fact that he bet into you on the turn after you had re-raised the pot on the flop implies a lot of strength here. I don't mind you raising your flush draw on the turn, although it might not even be a positive expectation play heads up on the turn with top and bottom pair on the flop and the flush draw. If there were more players in the pot it might have been a better play. I think at some point you had to worry about the other player having either AJ JJ or 88 since he bet into you on the turn when the flush draw came out. When you were check-raised on the river you might have even considered folding, hard as that would be to do with a hand that will usually win. Remember, they don't always have AK like you hope they do.When he called your turn raise and you didn't get the nut hand you probably should have just checked behind him on the river - that move would have saved you $24 on that pot, and if he had missed some kind of draw he probably would not have called your river bet, thus the river bet is only something that will screw you in this situation when you're beat. "Last hand was in a tourney (NL HE) - the casino is having a 1000.00 but in tourney in the near future and they are running some satellites every so often when they get 10 people in that try for the satellite. I am 2 from the SB, get pocket KKs - I raise to double the blind, one before the button reraises, I call. Flop is K-X-2. I bet, one before the blind goes all in, I call. He has pocket 2s - river gets him his fourth 2." You had the best possible hand on the flop and lost to a 1 outter on the river - that's a BAD BEAT as bad as they get. You really can't worry about it, it happens. The same thing happened to poker pro Chip Jett at this year's W.S.O.P. championship, he was getting near the money, got KK saw a flop of K X 5, him and one other player go all-in, the other player has Chip covered by a few chips and turns over 55, needless to say the river brings a 5. Be glad you didn't put up 10,000 dollars. One thing I've learned over the years is that if you NEVER chase a flush when there is a pair on the flop you probably won't lose too many dollars because of it. If you do need to chase a flush when there is a pair on the board you should probably only chase the nut flush with enough players to warrant it. Even then you should be inclined to chase your nut flush four flushes into a paired board when the board is something like 8 2 2 and not when it is K K Q. In the first case a flopped full house is much less likely than in the second case. In poker drawing dead is akin to suicide, avoid situations where you are or could be drawing dead - sometimes that means you should drop out of a draw on the turn when the turn card pairs the board, yes, sometimes you will drop out and your out card on the river, denying you a large pot, but other times you will see your flush card on the river and observe that the turn card did make someone else a boat, and you'll have a warm inner glow of how smart you are. | ||
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| Re: advice or help please, Ron, 13. Jul 2003 23:04 | ||
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| The first & third hands are tough luck. People flop open end st8s they will play them to the river. The 3rd you were always behind. It's the 2nd hand you have to re-evaluate. You are basically drawing to runner runner st8 flush. Even if you hit the flush on the turn, that might haves filled someone. That's the hand that MUST hit the muck. | ||
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| Re: advice or help please, Ron, 13. Jul 2003 23:04 | ||
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| The first & third hands are tough luck. People flop open end st8s they will play them to the river. The 3rd you were always behind. It's the 2nd hand you have to re-evaluate. You are basically drawing to runner runner st8 flush. Even if you hit the flush on the turn, that might haves filled someone. That's the hand that MUST hit the muck. | ||
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| Re: advice or help please, Ron, 13. Jul 2003 23:05 | ||
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| The first & third hands are tough luck. People flop open end st8s they will play them to the river. The 3rd you were always behind. It's the 2nd hand you have to re-evaluate. You are basically drawing to runner runner st8 flush. Even if you hit the flush on the turn, that might haves filled someone. That's the hand that MUST hit the muck. | ||
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| Re: advice or help please, shorn, 14. Jul 2003 05:11 | ||
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| I agree with Ron here. I think the first and third hands were tough one's that you just have to deal with. But, you played th third hand horribly IMO (no offense). You can't chase a flush (especially a non-nut flush) with a pair on the board. That is a guaranteed loser long run. Even though you knew that no one had AA in their hand, with all the action going on the case Ace was active, so that meant there were lots of cards that could come that would give someone a boat. You have to muck here. Hang in there though. With the action that we have access too online now, you can build a bankroll in a big hurry. | ||
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