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Server Time: 2/13/2012 7:16:30 AM PACIFIC |
 Why is this a bad play, afro, 12. Jul 2003 02:46 | ||
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| Recently, i was in a small stakes limit hold-em game on-line. I was the big blind. I was dealt 2 of spades and 3 of clubs. There were no pre-flop raises. So, I saw the flop. The flop was Q of diamonds, A of spades, 5 of hearts. There was a bet and no raise, so, i decided to see the turn for 1 bet. If the 4 doesn't come i had already decided i was folding. Sure enough, the 4 comes. There is a bet, i raise, i then get reraised. I figured this person had a set or a flush draw so i just called. The river doesn't pair up and doesn't put 3 suited cards on the board. This person bets, i raise, he caps it. I have my straight, he had pocket A's and flopped a set. I was called every name you can think of. He said it was a bad play on my part. Was i wrong and if i was, why? | ||
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| Re: Why is this a bad play, 4 POKER, 12. Jul 2003 03:11 | ||
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| I think the guy who chose to limp in with his AA was talking more of his OWN bad play and couldn't believe that he allowed 2-3 to beat out his set of Aces, that's what I think! And that's the risk you take when you limp in with the stone cold nuts. Had he raised pre-flop, you never would have called with 2-3, right? But I wouldn't defend my play with a response by saying, "I was in the BB and noone raised". Just take the chips and smile! But remember, your holding dodged a real bullet and you got extremely lucky to hit that 4-outer, too. I wouldn't be calling that bet on a regular basis if I were you, so keep that in mind. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Why is this a bad play, Orleans Ed, 12. Jul 2003 03:19 | ||
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| Well, if you play 2,3o and similar bad hands all the time, you can answer your own question by counting all the chips you -don't- have. | ||
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| Re: Why is this a bad play, 4 POKER, 12. Jul 2003 03:30 | ||
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| He was the BB and noone had raised, and with several players taking the flop, he knows what card he must hit on the turn in order to complete his hand. He also said that he would not have called the turn unless he hit the straight. It only cost him one small bet to see the turn and I don't think his call was that horrific. Grant it, he's going for a 4-outer, but I think the guy with the pocket Aces was steaming over the fact that HE didn't raise pre-flop and that's the chance you take by allowing the blinds to get a free look at the flop. Sometimes it works out for you........ and sometimes it doesn't. But yes, I agree that if he chose to go for that straight on a regular basis with those cards, his results will not be good enough to show a profit. | ||
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| Re: Why is this a bad play, afro, 12. Jul 2003 04:22 | ||
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| I never play 23 off. I saw 4 cards for 1 bet. If i wasn't BB, i would've never played them. A pre-flop raise , I'm gone. | ||
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| Re: Why is this a bad play, 4 POKER, 12. Jul 2003 04:24 | ||
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| Yes, I know that. | ||
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| Re: Why is this a bad play, Orleans Ed, 12. Jul 2003 05:56 | ||
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| Don't get me wrong, in a low limit game and under the circumstances, i don't blame you for having a look at the turn. My only point is, making a habit of it, in higher limit games, chasing straights at the turn is a good way to lose money, but we know that. | ||
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| Re: Why is this a bad play, Easy E, 13. Jul 2003 14:49 | ||
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| Only if you won't get paid off. With the pot where it was, the limit the bets were at didn't matter. I'd take this hand EVERY day for one pass at the turn, only costing me a flop bet. I'd probably raise the turn, but I might not make as many bets. The high-limit comment means nothing, unless it was a comment on the ability of the BB to get paid off. | ||
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| Re: Why is this a bad play, Swagman, 12. Jul 2003 04:28 | ||
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| Drawing to an inside straight is generally considered a bad move. LOL. So much so the cliche is older then a deck of playing cards. | ||
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| Re: Why is this a bad play, WilliamS, 12. Jul 2003 08:40 | ||
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| I may be wrong, I usually am, but speaking strictly from a mathematical standpoint it all depends on how many people are in the pot. If there were enough people in the pot; the odds could have been there for the call on the flop bet | ||
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| Re: Why is this a bad play, Tex, 12. Jul 2003 21:02 | ||
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| Exactly William. Also, don't forget the implied odds of bets/raises on the river if somebody was holding an A with high kicker or even AA (as was the case here). If there were 4 people in the pot, he would have been calling with 7:1 odds. That might be a bit on the low side for a 10:1 bet, but not totally outrageous. With 5 people in the pot, don't you think a call is mandatory and a fold would be the wrong move on the flop (9:1 before counting implied odds)? | ||
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| Re: Why is this a bad play, Schuster, 12. Jul 2003 21:25 | ||
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| The thing about implied odds is that you can still hit your hand and lose. Generally if you consider the pot odds as they are without counting implied odds, it's a good enough estimate. If he pays 7:1 and spikes his straight on the turn, he can count on collecting at least 1 addidional bet, if not more. If he gets 2 bets, he's made 11 small bets on that 1 call. The problem is that if the board pairs on the river, he's going to lose that turn bet, and probably at least 2 more bets on the river. With a hand like this, you can't use implied odds as an excuse to call with bad odds to do it. There are times when implied odds can be considered, but your draw has to be one that has little chance of being beaten on a redraw if you hit it. Lee | ||
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| Re: Why is this a bad play, shorn, 14. Jul 2003 04:55 | ||
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| I think that implied odds are better used on the turn and not on the flop for this point exactly. When applying on the turn, there is only 1 card to come and therefore you either hit or you don't. On the flop, you can still lose if you hit the turn and then lose on the river. So, for me I want better "actual" odds to call on the flop than I do on the turn. | ||
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| Re: Why is this a bad play, Easy E, 13. Jul 2003 14:52 | ||
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| Yes, it was a bad play on your part taking advantage of the idiot who didn't raise his Aces and THEN didn't check-raise the flop rather than bet out. (Even WORSE if he just smooth-called the flop and then got nailed on the turn). I'll take this "bad play" and steaming trip-Aces ANY day of the week and twice on Sundays. | ||
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| Re: Why is this a bad play, george epstein, 13. Jul 2003 22:50 | ||
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| Your opponent was the one who made the mistake. He let you in cheap after he had his aces. he should have raised to force you out before you drew the ionside straight. -- george e. | ||
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| Re: Why is this a bad play, stdioh, 14. Jul 2003 14:14 | ||
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| Indeed, you played the hand very badly, but it sounds like you want to learn from your bad play, so I'll tell you where you made your mistakes. > Recently, i was in a small stakes limit hold-em game on-line. I was the big > blind. I was dealt 2 of spades and 3 of clubs. There were no pre-flop raises. Great. You got to take a terrible hand to the flop for free. > So, I saw the flop. The flop was Q of diamonds, A of spades, 5 of hearts. There > was a bet and no raise, so, i decided to see the turn for 1 bet. If the 4 > doesn't come i had already decided i was folding. Sure enough, the 4 comes. Ah. You called with a gutshot here. There are only 4 cards in the deck that can help you and you're not getting pot odds to draw to a 4 outer. Not only that, but if you make your straight, it is the worst possible straight and it is very possible that there will be a better straight made. Not only *that*, but there is a flush draw on board, so only 3 of your outs are "clean" if you get the 4 that brings a flush there is a very good chance that you'll be beat by a flush. Now add to that the chance that you hit a clean 4, but another card comes to make the flush and you'll see the danger if you *do* make your hand - which you don't have odds to draw to. > There is a bet, i raise, i then get reraised. I figured this person had a set or > a flush draw so i just called. The river doesn't pair up and doesn't put 3 No! This is the worst thing you can do. Not only do you make your hand, but you do it without the flush coming and you get it on the turn where you can make some money out of it. You have the best possible hand at the moment. Worried your opponent is on a set? If he is then he only has 10 outs to a tight, so you're by far the favourite - raise. Worried your opponent is on a flush draw? Then he only has 9 outs. Raise. Worried that both of your opponents have such draws and there are about 19 outs against you? Well, you're still much more than a 1/3 favourite and you want to make them pay to take their cards. Raise raise raise. When you have the best possible hand, get your money in as fast as possible. Now if your hand is liable to stay the best nomatter what then you *might* think about letting them catch up when you're on the flop, but on the turn with a fragile hand like yours you need to raise this every time. > suited cards on the board. This person bets, i raise, he caps it. I have my > straight, he had pocket A's and flopped a set. I was called every name you can > think of. He said it was a bad play on my part. Was i wrong and if i was, why? Yes, we covered that you played very badly. I'm assuming that AA 3-bet the river for value against you because you were doubtlessly showing poor poker skills throughout your session. Thus he figured that his top set was good and that you would reraise him with hands worse than that. Long story short, if you keep playing like this, you will be eaten alive. Of course your opponent could have avoided this whole mess in the first place if he had raised his AA preflop. Long story short, you both played badly. | ||
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