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Server Time: 11/21/2008 5:56:21 PM PACIFIC |
 Multitable tourney question, palman, 10. Jul 2003 18:38 | ||
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| I'm in a 30 dollar NL holdem tournament. 635 players, fairly early on (down to say 560 people) I'm in the SB... blinds 10/20. 6 people limp in and I put it to 80. (question one... should I raise? Raise more/less?) I like raising because I would hate a flop of Q75 and get beat by 75s or something. But perhaps I should have put it to 150 or so. I figure since everyone limped in my AQ was probably good, if I get re-raised then maybe fold (if I put it to 150 instead) 6 people called the 80. Pot is 500. Flop QQ5. I check, hoping someone else has the other Q and I more than double up. One of the guys after me bets 480, then another guy called. I had to do a little math.... but after a minute of calculating I realized that how can 3 people call when there are only 2 queens left and I had one of them. Only hand that can beat me is 55. due to checking I hadnt invested much in this pot yet, but I have AQ, can I get away from it fearing the 55? Its still early in a multiplayer tourney on party, so its reasonable to assume another had a queen, and one was just a moron. (there are 10,600 people on the site at this point, some of em have to be morons) So I throw em all in (I figure it'll go in anyways next betting round) and someone had 55, I had AQ, and the other had QJ Could I get away from this hand, should have I? should I raise more preflop to drive out the 55? | ||
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| Re: Multitable tourney question, Big_Slick, 10. Jul 2003 18:53 | ||
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| Hey PM, Hmm... depending on the player, anything short of an all-in probably wouldn't have stopped the 5-5 from playing. This is a tough hand to lay down and I don't think I could have. However, you need to be careful with the all-in bet. 2 people are calling... you have to figure that one person has the other queen. The other person you had to figure had at least one 5 (this is where the moron factor comes into play). You play the hand sheepishly only to find out one of the idiots was calling with 2 pair. You failed to mention what your chip count was at so I can't answer your questions appropriately. However, maybe you should have played the hand a little more carefully. Although you checked here trying to trap, the play enabled you to gain information about 2 players. You need to use that to your advantage. Regardless, these are the plays that sting and put you in a bad mood all night long! | ||
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| Re: Multitable tourney question, palman, 10. Jul 2003 19:08 | ||
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| It was still very early in the tournament, we all had about the same stacks, the 1,000 we started with. Other clarifications, it was a rainbow flop, and my check wasnt so much to gather information, but perhaps give a smaller queen more confidence that he might be good or get a few more random small bets in the pot with someone with a pp or a random 5, which on second thought was been if it got checked around and someone made a full house on a turn with another pp. | ||
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| Re: Multitable tourney question, Dr_Monkey, 11. Jul 2003 04:38 | ||
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| > Only hand that can beat me is 55. due to checking I hadnt invested Actually, Q5 also beats you. This same thing happened to me in a tournament. Flop was QQ3. Blinds 25/50. I was UTG and raised with AQ. Only SB called. He had Q3. Knocked me out because I tried to slow play him, when he was slow playing me. | ||
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| Re: Multitable tourney question, Jav, 11. Jul 2003 10:31 | ||
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| Normally you would think a pre-flop raise would get rid of the Q-5, but I've seen some crazy things lately. I would have a hard time not busting out on that hand as well. | ||
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| Re: Multitable tourney question, Paul Stine, 11. Jul 2003 12:10 | ||
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| on 11. Jul 2003 10:31 Jav wrote: > Normally you would think a pre-flop raise would get rid of the Q-5, but I've seen some > crazy things lately. I would have a hard time not busting out on that hand as well. I'm certainly going bust on this hand (I guess that is obvious). But I'm not going to get an ulcer over getting busted with it. As I said when I got busted with KK, "That is the way it sometimes goes in (Party) poker." Paul Stine College Station, TX | ||
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| Re: Multitable tourney question, shorn, 11. Jul 2003 06:56 | ||
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| This is a great example of the Gap concept in that to call a lead bet takes a much stronger hand than to lead at the pot. The problem here is that you had a lead bet AND a caller before it got to you. So, you can safely assume that if you are behind, you only have 3 outs left and that if the the other guy also has AQ, you have two outs to potentially split. The biggest reason to worry IMO is the caller. What the hell could he have? AA? He would have either mucked or raised with that. Same with KK. He either has the other Queen or 55. This early in the tournament, I think you have to lay this down. Heads up, that's a different story. But with someone betting the size of the pot and getting called, you need a fully made hand to continue. I know it is a tough laydown, but you have to do it. | ||
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| Re: Multitable tourney question, Paul Stine, 11. Jul 2003 08:59 | ||
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| on 11. Jul 2003 06:56 shorn wrote: > This is a great example of the Gap concept in that to call a lead bet takes a much > stronger hand than to lead at the pot. The problem here is that you had a lead bet > AND a caller before it got to you. So, you can safely assume that if you are behind, > you only have 3 outs left and that if the the other guy also has AQ, you have two > outs to potentially split. > > The biggest reason to worry IMO is the caller. What the hell could he have? AA? > He would have either mucked or raised with that. Same with KK. He either has the > other Queen or 55. > > This early in the tournament, I think you have to lay this down. Heads up, that's a > different story. But with someone betting the size of the pot and getting called, > you need a fully made hand to continue. I know it is a tough laydown, but you have > to do it. Shorn, please stop thinking that other players think (at all, or at least) the way the you do. I played in this same tournament an got knocked out on the second hand. I held KK and my opponent held 88. He called my all-in bet, about 1.5X the size of the pot on the flop of Qd 5d 3c, with 88 to catch an 8 on the turn. He made a bad call with 2 outs and got lucky, such is poker. What an I going to do? Sit and fear that some woodentop called my pot+ raise before the flop with Q5? If I was that paranoid I would never leave the house. If you are that paranoid I suggest you take up a different game, something with complete information, like checkers. palman, if you see a sniper behind every tree you are never going to be sucessful at poker. With AQ and a flop of QQ5 there are precisely two hands that have you beaten, Q5 and 55. If you are worried when you see a caller then lead, don't follow. I think you should have bet larger pre-flop if you are going to bet at all here. There is a good arguement for just calling with AQ and a lot of limpers. Limpers are like dominos. Once they are set up, if you can get the first one to fall the rest will usually fall too. If that first one calls it is easier, and usually more correct for the rest of them to call. So, you have to really blast them out if you are going to succeed in stealing this pot. let's face it, with AQ your *are* hoping to steal because you aren't making a value bet here. The idea of limping yourself comes into consideration here, as well. when you limp you don't inflate the size of the pot pre-flop so that your big bet on the flop reduces that odds that calling gives your opponents. This is another way to manipulate the size of the pot to your advantage. Paul Stine College Station, TX | ||
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| Re: Multitable tourney question, Big_Slick, 11. Jul 2003 10:02 | ||
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| What an I going to do? Sit and fear that some woodentop called my pot+ raise before the flop with Q5? If I was that paranoid I would never leave the house. If you are that paranoid I suggest you take up a different game, something with complete information, like checkers. Wow. First off, I don't understand your hostility. A lot of people value what Shorn has to say. I am one of them. You don't have to agree with everything or everyone, but at least show some class. Secondly, this situation is totally different from yours. Being that it was the second hand in a tourney, a lot of people will go all-in not expecting to get called. A lot of players simply do not want to risk getting booted. Thirdly, you flop was a bunch of garbage and against just one player, isn't even comparable to this other hand. Palman is facing a paired board with 2 callers betting half their stack. That isn't being paranoid, that's being astute. As I mentioned in my post, although Palman checked intending to trap some players, he wound up gaining a wealth of information. To simply ignore this knowledge and letting the testosterone flow with your all-in bet is bad poker. Sure, checkers is a fairly straight forward game. Poker can be fairly straight forward at times as well. If you see red flags being waved in front of you, maybe it's time to slow down, not put your foot through the floor. | ||
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| Re: Multitable tourney question, shorn, 11. Jul 2003 11:07 | ||
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| Thanks Slick. I appreciate it. Paul makes some good points too and it is just a different style of play (willing to be aggressive to try and double up early) which has some merit. But, it isn't me and I think in this situation it would have been better to survive a little longer. Without the caller, its a different story heads up. | ||
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| Re: Multitable tourney question, Paul Stine, 11. Jul 2003 12:03 | ||
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| on 11. Jul 2003 11:07 shorn wrote: > Thanks Slick. I appreciate it. Paul makes some good points too and it is just a different style of > play (willing to be aggressive to try and double up early) which has some merit. But, it isn't me > and I think in this situation it would have been better to survive a little longer. Without the > caller, its a different story heads up. In my opinion, even a bet and call in this situation is not enough to change my course of action. I have to be aggressive here because I am sure enough that I have the best hand that I will bet or check-raise with it. (Now, that doesn't mean I am necessarily right in that belief.) That doesn't mean that I ignore that possiblity that I may be beaten, it can't since losing this hand and my whole stack is one element in the set of possible outcomes. What it means is that I am comfortable enough in my situation, given my cards and the typical players that I am up against, to risk all my chips in this situation. Like I stated in another post, I can certainly make arguments for folding pre-flop (if I'm not in the big blind) against 6 limpers. I've done it before. I don't generally like contesting multi-way pots in NL tournaments. That is why if I decide to persue the hand I will bet it aggressively at every chance I get, before and after the flop. I want to take control of the hand, not be blown along by the winds of chance. In a tournament like this, with 640 starters and a low buy-in, I am willing to risk an early bust out versus trying to play out of a hole from early on. If I win this hand, as I certainly expect to given the flop, I will double or triple up. Paul Stine College Station, TX | ||
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| Re: Multitable tourney question, shorn, 11. Jul 2003 12:11 | ||
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| Fair enough Paul. I guess I am just not as willing to bust out so early and therefore I am willing to give up some EV in order to last longer and then potentially take the chance. If this were another level of the tournament where the double up would guarantee me a money spot, then maybe I feel differently. However, I tend to play losse in the first round and then quite tight afterwards, not wanting to risk all my chips on a beatable hand until I have too. | ||
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| Re: Multitable tourney question, Paul Stine, 11. Jul 2003 11:49 | ||
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| on 11. Jul 2003 10:02 Big_Slick wrote: > What an I going to do? Sit and fear that some woodentop called my pot+ raise before the flop > with Q5? If I was that paranoid I would never leave the house. If you are that paranoid I > suggest you take up a different game, something with complete information, like checkers. > > > Wow. First off, I don't understand your hostility. A lot of people value what Shorn has to > say. I am one of them. You don't have to agree with everything or everyone, but at least show > some class. > It isn't intended to be hostile, it is a serious question. As I read the post, palman held AQ to a flop of QQ5. He is a huge favorite to all but two hands. He raised pre-flop, although I think he should have raised more given that he decided to raise into so many players. I can also think of good reasons for either just calling or even folding in this spot. So, given I am in palman's situation, what am I supposed to do? Fold to a bet on the offhand chance that better doesn't have one of the the 166 hands that I have dominated ? That is just silly and unjustifiably paranoid. Everybody is gonna get busted in this situation. If you don't you are either 1.) the greatest on-line player reading in the history of the game, 2.) the weakest player in the world or 3.) a cheat with knowledge of everyones cards. > Secondly, this situation is totally different from yours. Being that it was the second hand in > a tourney, a lot of people will go all-in not expecting to get called. A lot of players simply > do not want to risk getting booted. > My point wasn't about the hands in particular, but about the woodentops that comprise a large portion of the total population of these tournaments. They (the woodentops) don't need to hold a serious part of this flop to bet or call. And one of them calling is usuallly sufficient to get at least another to call. (This tendancy is usually refered to 'schooling' and has been widely discussed in r.g.p.) > Thirdly, you flop was a bunch of garbage and against just one player, isn't even comparable to > this other hand. Palman is facing a paired board with 2 callers betting half their stack. That > isn't being paranoid, that's being astute. > Actually, my flop was against three other players that called my raise out of the big blind, but that isn't important. Two of my opponents had the sense to get out; one called my bet with and underpair, not even to pair. Definitely not a good poker decision, but one that isn't a huge surprise given the fishy characteristics of the population. > As I mentioned in my post, although Palman checked intending to trap some players, he wound up > gaining a wealth of information. To simply ignore this knowledge and letting the testosterone > flow with your all-in bet is bad poker. > Against good players you have gained some information, against woodentops you have gained nothing, IMHO. BTW, I'm not wild about checking here to trap. I think you want to bet and take the pot. > Sure, checkers is a fairly straight forward game. Poker can be fairly straight forward at > times as well. If you see red flags being waved in front of you, maybe it's time to slow down, > not put your foot through the floor. The point is that checkers, and chess for that matter, are games of complete information, all possible moves are laid before you; there is no random input into the outcome like the turn of a card. Poker is a game of incomplete information. Since it is a game of incomplete information you are seldom going to be 100% sure of your position. If you require 100% surity, then poker is the wrong game for you. Paul Stine College Station, TX | ||
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| Re: Multitable tourney question, shorn, 11. Jul 2003 11:06 | ||
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| Paul- I hear what you are saying, but I think the main point is that it is so early in the tournament that to risk getting knocked off isn't worth it. I actually think the fact that people will call an all-in bet with worse cards is to your DIS-advantage in this case precisely because they can outdraw you with a lower pocket pair. Granted, I think a QQ5 flop is a good situation for AQ, but your hand can be beaten. Call me crazy, but this early in the tourny you can only lose, you cannot win and therefore that should be one of the predominant factors in how you play all hands, even good ones like this. Steve | ||
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| Re: Multitable tourney question, palman, 11. Jul 2003 11:54 | ||
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| I think the predominant factor in my deciding to go all in..... was playing on party poker for past month or so, seeing the just AWFUL players, and it wasn't that ridiculous of an assumption that one of them was holding something totally ridiculous like J10 looking for the runner runner straight draw. If I was playing with world class players, perhaps I could lay it down, but against the (10,000 +) party players there, like paul pointed out in the 88 in the same tourney, raises and calls get less respect in my eyes. | ||
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| Re: Multitable tourney question, Paul Stine, 11. Jul 2003 12:08 | ||
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| on 11. Jul 2003 11:06 shorn wrote: > Paul- > > I hear what you are saying, but I think the main point is that it is so early in the > tournament that to risk getting knocked off isn't worth it. I actually think the fact that > people will call an all-in bet with worse cards is to your DIS-advantage in this case precisely > because they can outdraw you with a lower pocket pair. Granted, I think a QQ5 flop is a good > situation for AQ, but your hand can be beaten. > > Call me crazy, but this early in the tourny you can only lose, you cannot win and therefore > that should be one of the predominant factors in how you play all hands, even good ones like > this. > > Steve Your point is taken. I would have to say, that if you are going to lay down AQ to action on the flop like this you shouldn't bother to play AQ in the first place. AQ is not a hand that I like to limp with, or play against a big field. It is a hand that I would much open the pot with and certainly want to lead with on the flop. Paul Stine College Station, TX | ||
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| Re: Multitable tourney question, shorn, 11. Jul 2003 12:13 | ||
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| On this, we completely agree. I would not limp with AQ either. It is an open-raise hand or fold to an open raise. Agains the right one opponent, you may be able to re-raise to steal pre-flop, but VERY rarely. | ||
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| Re: Multitable tourney question, timmer, 12. Jul 2003 16:50 | ||
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| yeap, AQ isn't called "walkin back to Houston" for nothing. on 11. Jul 2003 12:08 Paul Stine wrote: > > Steve > > Your point is taken. > > I would have to say, that if you are going to lay down AQ to action on the flop like this you > shouldn't bother to play AQ in the first place. AQ is not a hand that I like to limp with, or play > against a big field. It is a hand that I would much open the pot with and certainly want to lead > with on the flop. > > Paul Stine > College Station, TX | ||
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| Re: Multitable tourney question, timmer, 12. Jul 2003 16:58 | ||
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| At our Wednesday Las Vegas poker discussion group ( see Dr. Al Shoonmakers column in the latest issue of card player for more on this group and how you too can initiate one) we call this the MUB syndrome MUB = Monsters Under Bed. Better call for your mommy she'll always check under yours for you. timmer on 11. Jul 2003 08:59 Paul Stine wrote: . > > What an I going to do? Sit and fear that some woodentop called my pot+ raise before the > flop with Q5? If I was that paranoid I would never leave the house. If you are that > paranoid I suggest you take up a different game, something with complete information, like > checkers. > > > Paul Stine > College Station, TX | ||
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