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Server Time: 11/21/2008 6:27:13 PM PACIFIC |
 Advice please., mongi, 9. Jul 2003 11:00 | ||
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| You are dealt pocket tens in middle position of a somewhat loose typical 4-8 holdem game. you raise after an early limper, only the blinds call as well as the limper. The flop is 346 rainbow. The small blind bets ( she is a tight passive player who ususually has something when she bets, however, not always something big). The BB calls( she is a loose calling station). The EP raises (I have never played with this guy but I suspect he is a decent player). The game tends to be loose to the river.....What would you do? I will fill in the blanks later. Here is another quickie scenario. Somewhat tight somewhat aggressive game. Three players limp including you with Kh Js from late position. The flop comes 2c Td Jd. The small blind a tight aggressive player bets, a middle position player another tight aggressive player raises.....What do you do? | ||
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| Re: Advice please., stdioh, 9. Jul 2003 11:17 | ||
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| You have to raise here. There's a very good chance that you currently have the best hand and you want to cause impropper odds for anybody who wants to draw to a straight. I would say that anything other than raising is a mistake unless you have such a good read that you are sure the bettor has a made hand that beats your TT ... if you get that clear read then folding is in order. | ||
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| Re: Advice please., Schuster, 9. Jul 2003 11:33 | ||
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| In the first situation I'd raise. I'd put the opener on the up down draw, and the raiser on a 6 with a good kicker. The calling station, well who knows. Maybe just overcards, maybe a pair somewhere. In the second situation, is it 2 or 3 bets to you? I wouldn't call 3 cold. 2 is a stretch, and I'd probably favor making it 3 bets to just calling here to see where I stood. If he comes back for 4, you know you're beaten. Lee | ||
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| Re: Advice please., Big_Slick, 9. Jul 2003 12:30 | ||
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| Call me tight but I would fold here. You have the SB acting first and betting into a large field including the pre-flop raiser. If that's not enough, you've got a raise coming in from a pre-flop limper. All this with you left to act. I can't justify calling 2-bets cold here with pocket 10's. Although I can't imagine someone flopping the straight here, a low set is a distinct possibility. Someone raising with a open-ended straight is also likely, but I'd be concerned with a made hand. I'm sure I'm gonna draw heat on this one but I don't like how this hand is developing. I would fold. | ||
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| Re: Advice please., shorn, 9. Jul 2003 12:36 | ||
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| I would make the same play as the raiser with AK, so I don't fear the raise too much. If someone has the made str8, they will cap it and so might a low set. The idea (IMO) is to show your aggression here so that you (1) either fold off the blinds and get heads up with what is likely the best hand, or (2) get enough information to throw your hand away when it gets more expensive. I do think folding is weak tight in this instance (no offense). | ||
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| Re: Advice please., Big_Slick, 9. Jul 2003 12:50 | ||
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| I know it's a tight play to fold but I'm really hung-up on the SB here. When a SB bets into a 3 players after a pre-flop raise, my ears stand up and I do a scoobie-doo "huuuuh??" Couple that with a raise... I'm outta there. I'd rather save my money than get sucked into a hand that has too many unknowns. | ||
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| Re: Advice please., shorn, 9. Jul 2003 13:04 | ||
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| So what do you put the SB on? My guess is that he is betting a pair on the board (perhaps with an overcard kicker) because he thinks the board is raggedy enough not to have helped anyone. He wouldn't bet out with a str8 or a set because he would want action and that board demands bad cards or overpairs for action. No one has shown significant strength yet, so that seems unlikely. I am not saying that a fold is completely out of the question if you have a really good read, but in this case, I think the 3-bet is best. Define your hand and let the others tell you it is no good with additional action. | ||
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| Re: Advice please., Big_Slick, 9. Jul 2003 13:16 | ||
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| He wouldn't bet out with a str8 or a set because he would want action Well, you're ready to make it 3 to go with your 10's so I hope you're right. Like I said, I'm most worried that someone limped in with a small pair and hit their set. Although it's unlikely, maybe someone limped in with a larger pair than your 10's. | ||
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| Re: Advice please., shorn, 9. Jul 2003 13:24 | ||
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| If they limped and hit, then you will find out, most likely with a cap on the flop. Then, you can simply call that last small bet and if you don't hit a Ten on the turn re-evaluate. I guess our difference here is that I am not willing to make the decision that my hand isn't good until someone gives me a reason to think that and I don't think I have that yet. | ||
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| Re: Advice please., shorn, 9. Jul 2003 13:09 | ||
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| In the second scenario (KJo), I fold based on the descriptions you give. It will likely be 3-bet from the blind position and you could be drawing dead at this point. Any diamond, 8, 9, T, Q, or K and your hand is worthless (or you only have a redraw) and a J might not win it for you either. If you had AJ instead of KJ, then maybe you can stick, but with the field you describe, someone else has AJ and there are too many draws for this hand to be good at the end. Fold. | ||
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| Re: Advice please., Big_Slick, 9. Jul 2003 13:27 | ||
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| I agree with Shorn on this one. You are looking at flush and straight draws. Lets say you call and a King flops on the turn.... now what? Your King could have just filled someone's straight. I fold this baby in a heart beat and feel lucky that I was in late position and got out cheaply. | ||
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| Re: Advice please., Snorbolus, 9. Jul 2003 16:03 | ||
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| I am coming around to Shorn and Big Slick's opinion, that folding is best with the KJo hand. About the only hands that I can put the middle player on; tight aggressive, limped then raised when the blind bet out after the flop are: JJ (3), TT (3), 22 (6), AJ (12), AdTd (1), KdQd (1), KJ (9), QJ (12), JT (12), J9s (4), 9d8d (1) A total of 66 Of those, I would only feel good about 3 betting into: AdTd (1), KdQd (1), KJnot d (8), QJ (12), J9s (4) and 9d8d (1) 26 of the possible hands. Even if we exclude JTo as a middle position limping hand (I wouldn't play it there), I like my chances against less than half MP's likely holdings. Snorbolus | ||
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