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Server Time: 11/21/2008 6:29:05 PM PACIFIC |
 How bad can bad get??, Big_Slick, 8. Jul 2003 13:02 | ||
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| I was playing 2-4 on Party. I usually play 3-6 but have been taking such a beating lately, I thought I'd give 2/4 a try. What an experience. 7-8 players consistently seeing a flop. One player in particular was playing just about every hand and calling all the way to the river most of the time. I'm dealt K-9o in the BB and get to play for free. For some reason, there was only 3 other people in this hand (must have been bathroom time for the other 6 players). The flop comes 2-Q-Q. I check, the next player checks, the middle player checks and Mr. I-Can't-Help-Myself bets. I raise hoping that the other 2 players will fold and they do. Now I'm heads up with Mr. Crazy. The next card is a 4. I bet. He bets. The last card is a 3. I check. He hesitates. After about 7 seconds, he manages to squeeze out a bet. I raise with absolutely nothing. I know he doesn't have a queen and am playing the odds that he doesn't have a 2, 3 or 4. He calls the raise and I take down the pot. He had 6-9o. Unbelievable. He called my raise with 6-freakin-9!! Let me emphasize that I very rarely make a play like this on someone. However, after watching this moron play for 40 hands, I thought I'd have some fun. I honestly didn't believe that he had anything though. Not that I haven't been wrong before. One person might call it a skilled play... another might call it dumb-ass luck. As an extra note... some of the pre-flop raises I witnessed were: J-Ko in EP A-3o in LP Q-8 in LP K-10o in EP Someone had K-K and didn't raise pre-flop (and kicked my ass when the flop came A-5-K and I had A-Q). Gotta love it. | ||
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| Re: How bad can bad get??, mroban, 8. Jul 2003 13:49 | ||
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| Slick: I had similar experiences this past weekend playing on UB. I will say that online I am still playing $1-2 and some $2-4 mainly to build up my bankroll before I jump up to $3-6. But the $1-2 games are pretty much the same as the $2-4 in terms of fishiness. I was in a game Saturday night where there was a player who would always limp in (unless he had a big starting hand, then he would raise) but would always re-raise just to build a pot. Raising in this game was solely to put more money in the pot as nobody folded preflop. The pots were enormous. We were averaging $28 a pot on a $1-2 table. Incredible. Unfortunately for me (at least at first) the maniac was outdrawing me on every hand. I only played 5 of the first 50 hands and got outdrawn on the river on all 5 hands (by the maniac exclusively). So my bankroll was down $60-70 as I was betting for value. He was playing all kinds of junk. One hand I had KK, the flop came AK5. He was holding J5os. He reraised me preflop (and we still had 7 callers). On the flop I bet out, he called. 4 other callers. The turn was a 5. I checked, everyone checks, he bets out, I reraise, 2 callers (unreal) and he calls. Last card was another 5. So he goes runner, runner to pick up four 5s against my set of kings. Amazing I didn't go on full tilt after that one (by the way, my online name is fulltiltboogy). Moral of the story is that after this hand, I was down around $70 (and it went to $85 I think) and his bankroll had "swelled" to $70 or so (direct correllation). Two hours later I was up $120 on the night and he was about to bust out for the second time (he busted and came back in for $100 a second later). I never slept so good in my life. For me, I know just to remain calm, deal with the swings and stay patient. Obviously it doesn't always work out that way - sometimes the bad beats just keep on coming. But eventually we know we get the best of these guys, right? Nice to see you back in the winners circle. Do you play on UB at all? | ||
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| Re: How bad can bad get??, Big_Slick, 8. Jul 2003 15:46 | ||
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| Hey mroban, No, I only play at Party. Been menaing to try some other sites but I haven't gotten around to it. | ||
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| Re: How bad can bad get??, stdioh, 8. Jul 2003 13:56 | ||
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| Wow. I've never understood the fish that will call a bluff without having a hand good enough to beat a bluff. I mean, if you are that certain that your opponent has total garbage, but the total garbage is better than what you've got then your situation is reduced to folding or reraising. Sheesh. | ||
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| Re: How bad can bad get??, Snorbolus, 8. Jul 2003 15:00 | ||
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| Hey Big, Just out of curiosity, how did you know that he didn't have a queen? Was this player so aggressive that he would raise pre-flop 100% of the time that he had any paint at all? Snorbolus on 8. Jul 2003 13:02 Big_Slick wrote: > I'm dealt K-9o in the BB and get to play for free. ........ > The flop comes 2-Q-Q. I check, the next player checks, the middle > player checks and Mr. I-Can't-Help-Myself bets. I raise ...... > Now I'm heads up with Mr. Crazy. The next card is a 4. I bet. He bets. The last > card is a 3. I check. He hesitates. After about 7 seconds, he manages to squeeze > out a bet. I raise with absolutely nothing. I know he doesn't have a queen ....... | ||
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| Re: How bad can bad get??, Big_Slick, 8. Jul 2003 15:43 | ||
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| Well, to be honest, I didn't know for sure that he didn't have the queen. I was fairly certain that he didn't though. Here was my thought process... - Whenever he held A-x, he would always raise pre-flop (this was the moron who raised with A-3). He had raised pre-flop 5 times in 40 hands with A-x (that I could verify). Since he bet through to the river so much, I was able to see a lot of the crap he was playing with. - As bad as he was, I didn't catch him playing total trash. I guess even he had some standards. - He would always bet on the button regardless of what he held. He would also frequently do this in other positions too. However, since everyone checked in front of him on this play, it didn't surprise me a bit that he bet. - I figured that if he held a Queen, I would get a re-raise on the flop. That never happened. - When he hesitated on the river, I knew for sure he didn't have a Queen. The only question was, did he hold an undercard. I'll be the first to admit that it was a bold move by me. But when I see an ATM sitting at the table, I tend to play much more aggressive. | ||
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| Re: How bad can bad get??, Snorbolus, 8. Jul 2003 17:45 | ||
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| Hey again Slick, I have to confess that I don't like the way you played this hand. I really hate your raise on the flop. I am pretty sure that you were an underdog to a random hand at that point. Folding would certainly have been my play. I have done some back of the envelope type calculations for the river. You had the 11th nut high card. I think that there are 990 possible hands you could be up against. 669 beat you, 9 split and 312 loose to your holding. However, If you exclude: all queens, all pairs, all aces and KJ as possible holdings for your opponent (as you seem to have done, based on your read of him). That leaves 638 possible hands that you could be up against. 317 beat you, 9 split the pot and 312 loose to you. So, by check raising the river, you are risking 2 big bets to win 7.5-rake big bets, 49.7% of the time; assuming (as I think you did) that your opponent will always call. Given these assumptions I think (to my great surprise), that your play on the river may have been +EV. Nevertheless, I would still have check, folded the flop. Snorbolus | ||
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| Re: How bad can bad get??, Big_Slick, 8. Jul 2003 19:00 | ||
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| I understand the math. But how can you calculate in a player that never folds? This is a play where the math goes out the window. I was playing the player, not the percentages. | ||
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| Re: How bad can bad get??, shorn, 9. Jul 2003 04:43 | ||
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| That was a bold move alright. I have stopped making river bluff raises at the lower limits because everyone calls, even with 5th pair. Maybe I am giving something away here, but this play has been a -EV play for me over time. | ||
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| Re: How bad can bad get??, Giocatore, 10. Jul 2003 05:50 | ||
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| on 9. Jul 2003 04:43 shorn wrote: > That was a bold move alright. I have stopped making river bluff raises at the lower limits > because everyone calls, even with 5th pair. Maybe I am giving something away here, but this > play has been a -EV play for me over time. Shorn, I could not agree more with the above comment. With nearly 2000 hours of online poker experience, mostly in the range of 2/4 to 5/10, I have come to the conclusion that it is almost impossible to pull off a successful bluff at these levels due to the mere fact that people simply do not fold, especially given the "cyber chip phenomenon." Of course there will be a few who disagree with this, but in my situation I just don't bother anymore and have noticeably saved myself money in the longrun. | ||
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| Re: How bad can bad get??, shorn, 10. Jul 2003 05:57 | ||
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| Good to hear someone with a similar experience. There is actually one spot where I have found a river bluff to still work: a 4th flush cards hits on the river, you are heads up and act second against a farily decent player who has been doing the betting all along. Suddenly, he/she checks when that 4th suit hits. If the pot isn't too large, you can pull it off here. But, 99% of the time, bluffing the river up through 5-10 is a complete waste of $$. | ||
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| Re: How bad can bad get??, 4 POKER, 10. Jul 2003 07:13 | ||
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| Gio and shorn, Absolutely. If you're playing in a limit where most of your opponents are playing correctly, than you could use the bluff bets and the value bets more often.....*however*, if you're playing in a game (regardless of the limit) where most of them have no card sense whatsoever....than why bother to try and outplay them with a bluff. It won't work because they won't even be aware of what you're doing and will wind up calling you with bottom pair anyway. They DON'T know that their call would be an incorrect call most of the time leaving them at a -EV. So when you do try and make that bluff, it will only cost you $$. I agree and would save those bets when I was getting the best of it and you know what.....they're all gonna pay you off anyway 'cause they're the type of players who truly do add to your earn. I feel the same way when I play in a really loose calling station-type Omaha game. There's no need to make any moves unless you really have something 'cause they are all going to call in hopes that their pair of nines and their 6-5 low is good! I save those extra bets for when I DO have a monster, and than I pounce as hard as I can. Those hands that I was able to maximize my bets with make up for the bets that I saved myself for when I didn't really have a strong enough board and was just trying to make a play. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: How bad can bad get??, Big_Slick, 10. Jul 2003 08:08 | ||
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| I just want to reiterate that the only reason I even considered this play was because this player was betting and/or calling just about everything... I'd say 90% of the cards. | ||
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| Re: How bad can bad get??, Jav, 8. Jul 2003 15:22 | ||
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| Keep in mind that a player as bad as you describe could easily have a 2,4,6, etc. So they might easily have paired one of the small cards, no matter how bad of a player they are. But I'm glad it worked out for you. My problem is I try to attack people like that, then end up at the river with nothing as well. That usually doesn't end up very good for me :) | ||
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| Re: How bad can bad get??, PairTheBoard, 8. Jul 2003 16:18 | ||
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| I've been in some 5-10 games at PP with some hyper agressive players sometimes. I've decided it is a mistake to try to come over the top with even greater aggresiveness. Too often they actually have a hand when I do this. I'm adopting a "Rope a Dope" style against them. I let them steal a little against me but go Rope a Dope when I have a little something - check calling. Then, like Ali vs Forman, after taking round house punch after round house punch, when I get a chance I try to counter punch with good stuff. I figure the profit against such players is in taking advantage of the fact that they are way out of line from a proper frequency of agressiveness. I want to stay CLOSER to the proper frequency myself, which means I have to give up the agressiveness Crown to them a good part of the time. Yes, they suceed in getting me to check and call a lot. oh well. I don't mind letting them bet my hand for me. The chips flow toward me either way. jmo However, This strategy does not work so well when I misread the table and find myself against more solid players. | ||
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| Re: How bad can bad get??, Schuster, 8. Jul 2003 23:14 | ||
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| Tell me about it. I used to look for games with the biggest pots, now I'm looking for games with the smallest pots. I find it a lot easier to keep my cool when 8 people don't take the flop every hand. Lee | ||
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