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Server Time: 11/21/2008 6:29:51 PM PACIFIC |
 tourney question for Mike/Roy, Jaxen, 7. Jul 2003 23:30 | ||
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| Recently we got a couple dozen people together and did our own multi-table NL Hold'Em event. Everything went smooth until we were down to 4. ... On this one hand, Chip Leader and Short Stack are heads up at the final betting round. CL bets big, SS starts counting his chips on the table (ours has trays) to see if he can cover. SS finds that he can. Outta da blue, CL flips up his hand. "I thought it was a call." On the contrary, replies SS. "I was just counting down and was folding when finished." Since my brother brought the thing together (and he was in the can) and I was dealing at the time, I ruled: we treated it like SS folded and played on. Being among friends and acquaintences (who signed off on the ruling) had to do with it. Technically CL "fouled" the hand. So what woudda happened in the cardroom? How "off" was our outcome. Input? | ||
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| Re: tourney question for Mike/Roy, 4 POKER, 8. Jul 2003 02:39 | ||
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| I'm going to answer this because a similar incident happened at the WSOP this year. And the ruling was, if you turn up your hand before the action is completed, then your hand is dead. The SS in your game is entitled to count down his stack and has the right to touch, hold, maneuver his chips as long as he doesn't push them into the pot. In some cardrooms there is actually a line that goes around the whole table. That is the betting line meaning, in order for your bet to be consisdered a bet or call, your chips must go over that line. But once they are over that line, it's a bet. Alot of the cardrooms in the U.S. do not have that line on the table so the ruling in some casinos may vary. In Atlantic city, once your chips go over your cards, it's a bet, period. However, In las Vegas, it is not considered a bet until your chips actually come over the (imaginary line: over your cards) and hit the felt completely. So in what you described, the SS did neither of those things. He was simply counting down his chips, and unless he either announced the word "call", or placed his chips over his cards towards the pot, he is entitled now to throw his hand away without having to call the bet from the CL. The CL acted too quickly and that was his fault, not the fault of the SS. If you want to keep this friendly, then I would have a rule where the CL hand was still "live", but that the SS still has the option to fold if he chose to do so. However, IMO. because the CL did act prematurely, if now the SS decided to raise his bet, he should be allowed to do that as well. The mistake came from the CL, not the SS. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: tourney question for Mike/Roy, shorn, 8. Jul 2003 04:43 | ||
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| I agree. The CL made the mistake of acting out of turn. The SS should have had the opportunity to re-evaluate given all of the information (the CL's cards), and then fold, call, or raise. | ||
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| Re: tourney question for Mike/Roy, Paul Stine, 8. Jul 2003 06:36 | ||
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| on 8. Jul 2003 02:39 4 POKER wrote: > I'm going to answer this because a similar incident happened at the WSOP this year. > And the ruling was, if you turn up your hand before the action is completed, then > your hand is dead. > That is true *according* to the rules at the WSOP, however, as in golf, local rules prevail. If there is no rule saying that 'a hand exposed before action on that hand is complete is dead' then there is no basis for declaring the hand dead and any action subsequent to the exposure should stand. If you have no basis in the rules for ruling the hand is dead then that ruling is baseless and, at best, arbitrary. > The SS in your game is entitled to count down his stack and has the right to touch, > hold, maneuver his chips as long as he doesn't push them into the pot. In some > cardrooms there is actually a line that goes around the whole table. That is the > betting line meaning, in order for your bet to be consisdered a bet or call, your > chips must go over that line. But once they are over that line, it's a bet. Alot of > the cardrooms in the U.S. do not have that line on the table so the ruling in some > casinos may vary. In Atlantic city, once your chips go over your cards, it's a bet, > period. However, In las Vegas, it is not considered a bet until your chips actually > come over the (imaginary line: over your cards) and hit the felt completely. > > So in what you described, the SS did neither of those things. He was simply counting > down his chips, and unless he either announced the word "call", or placed his chips > over his cards towards the pot, he is entitled now to throw his hand away without > having to call the bet from the CL. The CL acted too quickly and that was his fault, > not the fault of the SS. > If you want to keep this friendly, then I would have a rule where the CL hand was > still "live", but that the SS still has the option to fold if he chose to do so. > However, IMO. because the CL did act prematurely, if now the SS decided to raise his > bet, he should be allowed to do that as well. The mistake came from the CL, not the > SS. > > > 4 POKER I agree, if the SS decided to raise in this case the CL should be allowed to make a complimentary action. Don't worry, at the rate poker is growing soon we will have more rules than Little League Baseball. Paul Stine College Station, TX | ||
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| Re: tourney question for Mike/Roy, Risky Business, 8. Jul 2003 06:54 | ||
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| Good job guys. Very important topic to keep things civilized between friends, because it invariably happens. I've printed the WSOP tale to post in my room. on 8. Jul 2003 06:36 Paul Stine wrote: > on 8. Jul 2003 02:39 4 POKER wrote: > > I'm going to answer this because a similar incident happened at the WSOP this year. > > And the ruling was, if you turn up your hand before the action is completed, then > > your hand is dead. > > > > That is true *according* to the rules at the WSOP, however, as in golf, local rules > prevail. > > If there is no rule saying that 'a hand exposed before action on that hand is complete is > dead' then there is no basis for declaring the hand dead and any action subsequent to the > exposure should stand. > > If you have no basis in the rules for ruling the hand is dead then that ruling is > baseless and, at best, arbitrary. > > > The SS in your game is entitled to count down his stack and has the right to touch, > > hold, maneuver his chips as long as he doesn't push them into the pot. In some > > cardrooms there is actually a line that goes around the whole table. That is the > > betting line meaning, in order for your bet to be consisdered a bet or call, your > > chips must go over that line. But once they are over that line, it's a bet. Alot of > > the cardrooms in the U.S. do not have that line on the table so the ruling in some > > casinos may vary. In Atlantic city, once your chips go over your cards, it's a bet, > > period. However, In las Vegas, it is not considered a bet until your chips actually > > come over the (imaginary line: over your cards) and hit the felt completely. > > > > So in what you described, the SS did neither of those things. He was simply counting > > down his chips, and unless he either announced the word "call", or placed his chips > > over his cards towards the pot, he is entitled now to throw his hand away without > > having to call the bet from the CL. The CL acted too quickly and that was his fault, > > not the fault of the SS. > > If you want to keep this friendly, then I would have a rule where the CL hand was > > still "live", but that the SS still has the option to fold if he chose to do so. > > However, IMO. because the CL did act prematurely, if now the SS decided to raise his > > bet, he should be allowed to do that as well. The mistake came from the CL, not the > > SS. > > > > > > 4 POKER > > I agree, if the SS decided to raise in this case the CL should be allowed to make a > complimentary action. > > Don't worry, at the rate poker is growing soon we will have more rules than Little League > Baseball. > > Paul Stine > College Station, TX | ||
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| Re: tourney question for Mike/Roy, stdioh, 8. Jul 2003 15:11 | ||
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| > I'm going to answer this because a similar incident happened at the WSOP this year. > And the ruling was, if you turn up your hand before the action is completed, then > your hand is dead. You know what I've always wondered. What if your cards get exposed in the WSOP through no fault of your own? Like lets say that the all in player beside you has AA and gets mad when the turn brings a 4 flush in a suit he doesn't have, knows he's on the way out, reaches over (lets say he really hates you because you are Phil Hellmuth) and exposes your cards before stomping out the door. By the book, your hand is exposed and thus dead, even though you might be holding the nuts and have not wanted to expose them. Is the "protect your hand" rule that all encompassing? Obviously the player to interfere would be in some deep trouble with the house, but what is to be done in that situation with the players involved? If you want my opinion I would say that betting should be frozen and the player with the unfairly exposed cards should be treated as an all-in player from that point forwards...which still sucks, but I can't think of a better way to do it. | ||
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| Re: tourney question for Mike/Roy, Risky Business, 8. Jul 2003 15:25 | ||
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| geez, remind me never to sit next to you!! jj on 8. Jul 2003 15:11 stdioh wrote: > > I'm going to answer this because a similar incident happened at the WSOP this year. > > And the ruling was, if you turn up your hand before the action is completed, then > > your hand is dead. > > You know what I've always wondered. What if your cards get exposed in the WSOP through no > fault of your own? Like lets say that the all in player beside you has AA and gets mad > when the turn brings a 4 flush in a suit he doesn't have, knows he's on the way out, > reaches over (lets say he really hates you because you are Phil Hellmuth) and exposes your > cards before stomping out the door. > > By the book, your hand is exposed and thus dead, even though you might be holding the > nuts and have not wanted to expose them. Is the "protect your hand" rule that all > encompassing? Obviously the player to interfere would be in some deep trouble with the > house, but what is to be done in that situation with the players involved? > > If you want my opinion I would say that betting should be frozen and the player with the > unfairly exposed cards should be treated as an all-in player from that point > forwards...which still sucks, but I can't think of a better way to do it. | ||
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| Re: tourney question for Mike/Roy, MozMan, 8. Jul 2003 20:51 | ||
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| I think you are right, but my guess would be that they would say the player had a responsibility to protect his cards, and call his hand dead anyway. -Moz "The reports of my assimilation are greatly exaggerated." | ||
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| Re: tourney question for Mike/Roy, Roy Cooke, 8. Jul 2003 07:19 | ||
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| The chip leaders hand should be dead........He turned his hand over and it affected the action.... Roy Cooke on 7. Jul 2003 23:30 Jaxen wrote: > Recently we got a couple dozen people together and did our own multi-table NL > Hold'Em event. Everything went smooth until we were down to 4. > > ... On this one hand, Chip Leader and Short Stack are heads up at the final > betting round. CL bets big, SS starts counting his chips on the table (ours has > trays) to see if he can cover. SS finds that he can. > > Outta da blue, CL flips up his hand. "I thought it was a call." On the > contrary, replies SS. "I was just counting down and was folding when > finished." > > Since my brother brought the thing together (and he was in the can) and I was > dealing at the time, I ruled: we treated it like SS folded and played on. Being > among friends and acquaintences (who signed off on the ruling) had to do with > it. Technically CL "fouled" the hand. So what woudda happened in the cardroom? > How "off" was our outcome. Input? > > | ||
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| thanks Roy (& everybody), Jaxen, 8. Jul 2003 10:27 | ||
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| Thanks guys ... the fact that the chip leader acted outta turn and fouled the hand isn't in doubt ... the issue was which direction to push the pot ... even though his opponent agreed to fold is the offender still entitled to the pot? Thinking back I don't think short stack even saw chip leader's cards ... he just knew he turned them up and went "Whattayadoin, I was about to fold?" My ruling produced the same result as what would have happend if CL had waited 10 seconds. Our new rule regarding will be this: you show early, your opponents get to fold or call (not raise) based on what they see. It's fairest. Then the offender will get mercilessly berated. Nice Little League reference ... remember then this was all so much easier and we were playing 5 card draw in the corner of the school cafeteria for lunch money? | ||
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| Re: thanks Roy (& everybody), Paul Stine, 8. Jul 2003 11:23 | ||
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| on 8. Jul 2003 10:27 Jaxen wrote: > Thanks guys ... the fact that the chip leader acted outta turn and fouled the hand isn't > in doubt ... the issue was which direction to push the pot ... even though his opponent > agreed to fold is the offender still entitled to the pot? > Thinking back I don't think short stack even saw chip leader's cards ... he just knew he > turned them up and went "Whattayadoin, I was about to fold?" My ruling produced the same > result as what would have happend if CL had waited 10 seconds. > Our new rule regarding will be this: you show early, your opponents get to fold or call > (not raise) based on what they see. It's fairest. Then the offender will get mercilessly > berated. > > Nice Little League reference ... remember then this was all so much easier and we were > playing 5 card draw in the corner of the school cafeteria for lunch money? Whatever you decide please don't try to enforce imaginary rules because you will bust a the game and maybe some friendships as well. Write all your rules down and make them available to all players. If you want a head start, check out some the published rule books or those available on-line. Try the Las Vegas Hilton Poker Rule Book at http://www.pokerworld.com/rules2.htm or Robert's Rules of Poker at http://www.diamondcs.net/~thecoach/RobsPkrRules3.htm Paul Stine College Station, TX | ||
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| Re: thanks Roy (& everybody), stdioh, 8. Jul 2003 15:22 | ||
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| I couldn't agree more. A rule isn't a rule until you've written it somewhere. Make up a few page document, print it out, leave it lying around, and say, "If any dispute comes up, the final answer is whatever is written in the rule book." Make one of the rules that you have the final say in anything that isn't covered there too. | ||
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| Re: thanks Roy (& everybody), stdioh, 8. Jul 2003 15:21 | ||
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| You still have to make sure that people are not showing their hands for unfair gains. For instance, lets say that the turn has me holding the nut straight with tonnes of draws that could beat me out there and 6 players in the hand. Lets also say that I have T200 left in front of me and there is T1000 in the pot. It would Now if I were to bet at the pot and then show everybody the hand I have players holding such hands as top pair with a gutshot would realize they were drawing to 4 outs and fold out, increasing my chances of winning what is in there. In this case I don't want anybody to call me even though I am holding the nuts. I desperately want to get rid of all chasers. Thus the "hand declared dead" rule would be important here. It would prevent such abuses. I've played in far too many friendly games where players intentionally expose a card in order to gain an unfair advantage and it irks me to no end. Another example would be a hand where a preflop raiser exposes an ace after the flop comes king high. He's representing AK or AA and using this ace to try to convince his opponent to fold. Now if his opponent believes him (which is more likely than if he just said, "one of my cards is an ace") and folds when he would have called, it affects the pot odds for other players in the hand who are drawing, unfairly. Likewise, he also exposes the suit of the card which could again change pot odds for players. Now the player with middle pair and the ace overcard sees one of his outs gone too. It is unfairly disruptive to other players and for that reason, the dead hand rule makes more sense. | ||
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| Re: tourney question for Mike/Roy, stdioh, 8. Jul 2003 15:05 | ||
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| This is a question of house rules, but since there aren't any, I think you made the right choice. The player chose to expose his cards without "knowing" that he was being called. Thus if the opponent decides to fold, this is ok. As long as he hasn't given a verbal indication that he is calling and hasn't thrown chips into the pot, counting is acceptable within his own construction area. | ||
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