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Server Time: 9/7/2008 7:24:51 PM PACIFIC |
 Unexpected flop, Schuster, 6. Jul 2003 23:37 | ||
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| I'm in the big blind with 8s 9s and 7 people limp in. It gets to me and I raise and everyone calls. I expected a good flop or a bad one, and the hand would play itself. Wrong! Flop is: 3h 6s8h Oops. So I flopped top pair with a junk kicker, and a longshot at a backdoor straight or flush. What the heck do I do now? Well, the small blind checked and I went ahead and bet, got 4 callers. The next card is the 7h, so I picked up a gutshot to go along with my top pair, but there's 3 to a flush on board. I bet again to see what would happen. 2 people called. The river is the 10c, it's checked to the last player who bets, I call and he has a flush (didn't raise me on the turn). I get the feeling I played this less than optimally. Where did I mess up? Lee | ||
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| Re: Unexpected flop, stdioh, 7. Jul 2003 01:51 | ||
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| This is a top pair junk kicker that you really can't bet. There are just too many people in the hand and somebody is going to at least hit an overcard. I would check and probably call. When the flush comes, the gutshot means diddly and so does the pair. I'd check again here and probably not call. | ||
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| Re: Unexpected flop, 4 POKER, 7. Jul 2003 01:56 | ||
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| Sometimes a player will raise with a hand like the one you mentioned, even from the BB with lots of limpers. I uinderstand the reason behind your raise...you either flop really good or you don't and you proably just wanted the extra money in the pot just in case, right? It's not an awful play to do on occasion and it's a way to mix it up a bit as well.....especially knowing that more than likely noone would have re-raised you now after just limping in to begin with. So with that said, your pre-flop raise can be acceptable BUT, when you make a raise with a medium suited connector, you MUST flop perfect. There were way too many players calling pre-flop and for that reason alone makes it even more crucial that you either flop really really strong or are able to let it go and not waste any more money on a flop that didn't really favor your holding enough. Even if you tried to take control on the flop?..........The turn is a definite check fold. It's ok to make the raise (table image) on occasion, but the real value that comes from making these types of plays comes from the ability to let it go on the flop when it isn't quite strong enough and maximizing on the times when it does hit perfectly. Just know when to let it go(save those extra bets on the flop), and you'll be able to show a longer term profit for when it does flop good for you, that's all. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Unexpected flop, shorn, 7. Jul 2003 07:20 | ||
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| I think the optimal play was to check/fold the flop. You have lousy position and there are roughly 27 cards tha can come on the turn to beat you (any T-A, 3 additional flush cards, and the board pairing below your 8). I agree that the raise pre-flop was good as a mix up, but as others point out, you MUST flop perfect to continue here (up/down, 2 pair, or gutshot with 2 overs). Otherwise, you are in trouble. I most likely would have checked the flop and folded unless it cam back to me and there were odds enough to draw for the 2-outer (as pairing your 9 brings the str8 in play for someone else). | ||
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| Re: Unexpected flop, mroban, 7. Jul 2003 14:44 | ||
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| For me in my continued quest to be an excellent player, if I was going to make that raise it would be only to mix it up. But I wouldn't do it in the BB when I get the free ride. Why invest more in a junk hand when you have 7 callers and a free look at the flop? Personally, I like the occasional raise with that hand, but mostly in a late position (not necessarily the button though) where there were a few limpers and you can gain position by raising. I hate having to make the decision you had to make so badly out of position. If you were in a late position and the betting came down bet, call, call, you would have the information you need to muck the hand. Is that the right way of looking at this guys? 4 Poker? Stdioh? Beuller? | ||
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| Re: Unexpected flop, 4 POKER, 7. Jul 2003 15:50 | ||
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| on 7. Jul 2003 14:44 mroban wrote: > For me in my continued quest to be an excellent player, if I was going to make that > raise it would be only to mix it up. But I wouldn't do it in the BB when I get the > free ride. Why invest more in a junk hand when you have 7 callers and a free look at > the flop? > > Personally, I like the occasional raise with that hand, but mostly in a late > position (not necessarily the button though) where there were a few limpers and you > can gain position by raising. > > I hate having to make the decision you had to make so badly out of position. If you > were in a late position and the betting came down bet, call, call, you would have the > information you need to muck the hand. > > Is that the right way of looking at this guys? 4 Poker? Stdioh? Beuller? mroban, You can chose to raise with it from either the BB or the button. Reasons being that in both spots you proably won't be faced with a re-raise but by raising it in the BB after everyone has limped in already will give you a little bit more assurance of that. If you raise with it on the button, there would still be a chance of it getting re-raised by one of the blinds. I'm not saying that either is a great play, there's the advantage of being on the button because your position would be optimal (like you mentioned) whereas in the BB, you would be out of position. And yes, after there are alot of limpers already, you could just chose to take the flop for free but on occasion (and that means only once in a blue moon), you could raise with a medium suited connector out of the BB, as long as you are capable enough of letting it go immediately if you don't flop absolutely perfect because that is where the hand/play will cost you alot of wasted bets and will then only prove to show you a more negative result in the long run. If you're able to raise with it, you must be able to fold it, as well, this way when it does flop strong for you, you'll be able to show some profit.....maximizing on the good flops and minimizing on the bad or weaker flops. But all in all, just taking the flop for free would be fine, too. Absolutely. I would make that play only for "mixing up/table image."....for me it has some value to it. But that depends on your table image and how you want to be perceived by your opponents at that given time. Remeber, nothing is ever a mandatory raise, OR call. So mixing your play up (on occasion) could add to your earn if you chose to do it wisely with good reasoning behind it, too. The bottom line....if you're strong enough to lay it down on the flop, then you can make the raise. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Unexpected flop, Schuster, 7. Jul 2003 23:26 | ||
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| > > For me in my continued quest to be an excellent player, if I was going to make that > > raise it would be only to mix it up. Oh yeah, I definately don't always make this kind of raise. It was more of a "mix it up" raise. Had I played the hand well, I don't believe the raise to be a minus EV play. > > Why invest more in a junk hand when you have 7 callers and a free look at the flop? I love these hands when there's a huge field. I think I'd rather have a decent suited connector than an AQo against a field like this because you're probably going to need to hit your hand twice to beat 7 others. It's easier to do that with a suited connector than with 2 offsuit big cards. > > I hate having to make the decision you had to make so badly out of position. If you > > were in a late position and the betting came down bet, call, call, you would have the information you need to muck the hand. Good point. I am more inclined to do this from the button, but I do wait until the conditions are near perfect before making a raise like this, and I felt like they were in this game. Lots of passive people were paying off hands that in my opinion shouldn't have been paid off so heavily. Position helps a LOT if people tend to "check to the raiser" every time and it's more often than not, beneficial to take a free card with this kind of holding. The other thing is, whenever you raise out of the blind, everyone (at least those who are paying attention) puts you on a big hand. AA, KK, AK, perhaps QQ. If you hit your flop, you're going to get a lot of extra action from people if they hit 2 pair but can't beat what draw you hit, and with 7 limpers, there's a much better than normal chance that someone will hit 2 pair. In late position, a raiser could have a wide variety of hands, so there's less of a "certainty" from the other players. Clearly, having position is the better of the two, but there is some advantage to doing it in the blind. > but on occasion (and that means only once in a > blue moon), you could raise with a medium suited connector out of the > BB I agree about the rarity of the situation. Not only do you need to proper type of game, but it's also an image thing. If you flop really well and show your hand down, people might give a little less credit to your preflop raises and call with weaker holdings. I think the last time I did this sort of thing was about a week and a half ago with JT of spades, and I've played about every day since then for at least a few hours a day. That's a few thousand hands or so? Not often at all! > as long as you > are capable enough of letting it go immediately if you don't flop absolutely perfect > because that is where the hand/play will cost you alot of wasted bets and will then only > prove to show you a more negative result in the long run. I realize now where I screwed up, and thanks to everyone who posted. Next time I make this sort of play, I will save my money for a situation that will make me money, not lose it for me. > The bottom line....if you're strong enough to lay it down > on the flop, then you can make the raise. Next time I will be, I hope! Lee | ||
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| Re: Unexpected flop, Irb, 8. Jul 2003 01:07 | ||
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| Hi, That's a tough hand indeed! With so many callers, you had chasers and turn hit someone. Your turn bet they only called because they might have feared a higher flush. After flop with 4 flush, about 2.5 to one on getting flush, but with danger of being beat if you aren't the nut flush. Beare of # of callers.... more = less wins for you... and of course you have to fear the J9 also..... for a 7-8-9-10-J str8 Heads up that hand is pretty solid though, but I recall a recent river beat with similar knocking me out of a tournament. on 6. Jul 2003 23:37 Schuster wrote: > I'm in the big blind with 8s 9s and 7 people limp in. It gets to me and I raise > and everyone calls. I expected a good flop or a bad one, and the hand would > play itself. Wrong! Flop is: > > 3h 6s8h > > Oops. So I flopped top pair with a junk kicker, and a longshot at a backdoor > straight or flush. What the heck do I do now? Well, the small blind checked > and I went ahead and bet, got 4 callers. The next card is the 7h, so I picked > up a gutshot to go along with my top pair, but there's 3 to a flush on board. I > bet again to see what would happen. 2 people called. The river is the 10c, > it's checked to the last player who bets, I call and he has a flush (didn't > raise me on the turn). > > I get the feeling I played this less than optimally. Where did I mess up? > > Lee | ||
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| Re: Unexpected flop, Orleans Ed, 8. Jul 2003 05:11 | ||
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| Not taking the free Flop, as mentioned above, is the problem i had with that hand also. With low suited connectors, -your- one of the players looking for a cheap Flop, hoping nobody raises. By raising pre-Flop, the way i saw it, at that point, you're committing yourself to a bluff hand. And, it seemed to be working. The other players deferred to you with folds, checks and calls. You didn't say how high the flush was, but as long as you went to the river, maybe if you raised the flush bet at the end, it's possible that he may have folded. I agree with the other comments about taking the free Flop, but as far as raising, there's no point to it unless you're going to follow through convincingly with a bluff. | ||
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