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Server Time: 8/29/2008 12:39:30 PM PACIFIC |
 when to lay down AA, CanuckJohnny, 6. Jul 2003 22:48 | ||
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| First time poster, look forward to any replies with thanks.. Playing 510 game.. get AdAc in llate position. There is a raise from middle position preflop, which I 3 bet. SB caps preflop, BB folds, and middle position and I both call and see the flop of Jd5d2s SB comes out betting, mid position raises, I 3 bet, and SB caps.. (deja vu all over again) Turn is 9h. SB bets again, both middle position and I call. River is Tc. SB bets, middle position raises, I muck, SB three bets, which is called. SB shows KcQc (nut straight) Middle player shows JTo, two pair. Anything I can do here to improve my play for future. Should I be raising the turn bet when the nine comes? I didnt' because I didn't know how to react if three bet? Thanks for your input. | ||
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| Re: when to lay down AA, Swagman, 6. Jul 2003 23:10 | ||
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| Tuff to play a hand when caught in the middle of grim circumstances. I don't think I'd have the cajones to make it a 3-bet on the flop. Looking at a set of jacks would be my gut feeling, however there was far to much action in this game for sure to consider taking Aces any further after SB capped it, because I'd at the very least have had placed two of players on drawing hands and at the other with a legitimate hand that could beat you out right. Id save your money for a flop that was a little more friendly to rage a raise war. | ||
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| Re: when to lay down AA, stdioh, 6. Jul 2003 23:24 | ||
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| I think you played that hand just fine. You got beaten by bad players and they'll pay you off in the long run. Most importantly, when there was a bet and raise to you on the river, you had the sense to pitch your overpair. So many players sit on their aces to the end and pay 2, 3, or 4 river bets just so that they can flip their aces up on the table in some kind of bravado. I think that these players know that their aces are cracked and are now only calling for the sake of sympathy. In this case, you were destined to lose the hand, but you got your money in when you had the best of it and when things went to pot you ditched your aces and saved your $20. I think you played it just right. | ||
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| Re: when to lay down AA, Swagman, 6. Jul 2003 23:40 | ||
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| HMM. that flop considering the betting is disasterous to pocket As. because you had no idea where you stood. Its true that nobody else did either, but at least one of the gents was betting into Somehthing i would assume. In this case 2 pairr. Also considering the action pre-flop i would think at least one of them was holding another one of my aces. that left me 2 cards to trip, and the best 2 pair if the board paired. Thats lousy, because if the board paired with this action you'd been beat by a full house likely. If you wouldnt chuck these aces, then you playing poker with the philosphy that it takes money to make money. boyo. | ||
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| Re: when to lay down AA, Swagman, 6. Jul 2003 23:47 | ||
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| And further more 2 of the players at the table was playing spectacular poker, thanks. | ||
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| Re: when to lay down AA, Orleans Ed, 7. Jul 2003 06:00 | ||
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| I agree, there wasn't much you could do. The SB and MP were in to the end no matter what. | ||
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| Re: when to lay down AA, 4 POKER, 7. Jul 2003 01:03 | ||
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| Hey Canuck, Welcome to the UPF! I think you played your hand correct pre-lop and on the flop,I really do. Though I don't know what type of player was in the SB , it's tough to say if he was loose enough to cap off the betting with pocket Jacks,and unless he was extremely loose and aggresive, MOST players would not cap the betting with J-J, it's just too vulnerable of a hand....in fact, if the player was really solid, he wouldn't even be calling 3 cold bets with two Jacks; it's a marginal holding at best given the circumstances and he's got terrible position as well. So given that reason, I would still have to believe that with that flop, my A-As were still the nuts. IMHO, that was a favorable flop for A-A, given that the flop came up with one Jack and two small rags. With all that heavy betting pre-flop, I would've been more likely to have put the other players on bigger pocket pairs like Q-Q or K-K, or even the same holding as yours or at the very worst....A-K; all those holdings would be inferior to yours at this point (the flop). It's really hard to think that someone has flopped a set with that board. There were two small cards and one Jack and you must consider that all the players involved were raising pre-flop, not just you, so given that information, I wouldn't necessarily give them a better hand on mine. I don't think the 9 on the turn was a bad card for you either because if a player did hold pocket nines, he probably wouldn't be re-raising with it once the hand was raised back, so even at that point (the turn), I would still be okay with my A-A. But if there was extreme heavy raising on the turn, the MP may have flopped 3 Jacks and I would probably back off just a bit, but I would still call the raise, And I wouldn't be too concerened about the aggression coming from the SB, cause like you had mentioned, he was the one who capped it off pre-flop, (not only did he call 3 bets cold, he capped it, so with that reason/information, I would have put him on a bigger pocket pair than J-J. The river is a tough spot to be in because even if you did chose to call, (and at that point your hand was no good), it still could have been very possible that somebody just held one big pocket pair (like K-K or Q-Q) and would have played it the same way. Had the flop contained more of a coordinated board like K-Q-9 or something like K-K-J, or K-Q-J, I would have given somebody a better hand than mine now and would definitely back off from getting too aggresive with A-A. But the board that you had was just about as good as you could have asked for unless of coarse you were fortunate enough to flop a set. Alot of knowing what your opponents possible holdings may be, depends a lot on how familiar you actually are with their game/play and what their tendenies and/or capabilities are. Are they really loose? Are they really tight and so forth. All in all, I think you played your hand just fine.....you just got a tough break on it, that's all. Better luck, and may your Aces hold up the next time, too! 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: when to lay down AA, Wren, 7. Jul 2003 10:20 | ||
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| Good analysis, 4P. Very "Roy-Cooke"-ish :O) | ||
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| Re: when to lay down AA, 4 POKER, 7. Jul 2003 15:54 | ||
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| (LOL). Thanks! | ||
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| Re: when to lay down AA, Swagman, 7. Jul 2003 01:27 | ||
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| These boyz weren't playing traditional ABC poker. Whats the chance in your world that pre-flop would qaulify 4-betts. AA-KK-AK-QQ? this is unlikely. And although Hold'em isnt 7-stud a good player is looking at dead cards. This means on the flop what is common sense? A-J or J-J these means your dead or practically, expecially if someone else is holding another hand say A,K. Another thing to consider is that these players already got it in there heads that they have to win or have the strength to draw to a hand that can beat pockets A. thats a resonable asumption considering 4-bets pre-flop. Like 4 POKER I see no reason to take another bet after that 10 hit on the turn. I'd have mucked it after the 4-bet on the flop tho. | ||
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| Re: when to lay down AA, 4 POKER, 7. Jul 2003 01:39 | ||
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| I don't know Swagman....he didn't say that these players were really loose (but than again, we're not sure what types of players they were, it wasn't mentioned.) But you would muck A-A on the flop with a board of J rag, rag? Man, that's a tough fold. I wouldn't muck A-A in that spot but I would back off a bit if there was way too much aggression. But I guess we know now just how loose they really were, given their holdings and that flop, right? Anyway....It's good to hear different peoples perspectives, it keeps us thinking. Bygones be bygones? 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: when to lay down AA, Swagman, 7. Jul 2003 01:53 | ||
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| Naw I couldn't lay down AA on a J rag rag (this is do what I say not what I'd do), but the thought of going into all out warfare on hand that wasn't likely going to improve itself I hope would have scared me off of it. And I think it would be fair to say it had to improve itself even if the board paired with so many schooling, but that is all hindsight. | ||
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| Re: when to lay down AA, 4 POKER, 7. Jul 2003 02:05 | ||
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| Ahhh, if only we ALL did what we say! I hear ya. (LOL). Maybe by writing here on the UPF is a way to re-enforce our own self discipline if nothing else. All in all.....that's a good thing IMO. | ||
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| Re: when to lay down AA, PairTheBoard, 7. Jul 2003 02:31 | ||
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| The SB caps before the flop with KcQc and caps the flop of Jd5d2s ? Can he be anything other than a maniac? Does everybody know he's a maniac? Does the middle postion raiser on the river know he's a maniac. And the MP raiser saw you show weakness by just calling the turn? Have you been saving quite a few bets with good lay downs up to this point? If he has something like AJ or QQ or KK, MP is in a perfect postion to put in an overbluff figuring he can beat the SB and push out the better hand on the button. Are 8-1 odds good enough to call that bet? I don't know. I'd sure be tempted to call. | ||
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| Re: when to lay down AA, 4 POKER, 7. Jul 2003 02:46 | ||
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| I agree Pairtheboard, He was playing with total maniacs and when you're in a game with that many loosey-goosies, everything turns to a crapshoot. But we all know that in the long run if the SB continues to play the same way, there will be no long run for him....he'd be broke a long time before that!...unless of course he's Bill Gates! | ||
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| Re: when to lay down AA, Swagman, 7. Jul 2003 05:23 | ||
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| This was probably a five and dime live hold'em game, but the hand is a little more interesting then to dismiss it as the cockfight amongst maniacs. I've seen this play on every level of the game. Well at least up to and including the blinds that I play at. obviously if players are wiling to cap pre-flop with J,10 then were not looking at a traditional game, this doesnt necessarily mean they can't play it just means that there willing to cap the game pre-flop. Now when the flop comes with J rag rag, put yourself in his shoes. He bets (nothing but 2 overcards wanting to show strength and another free card), B raise, C reraises, Doh He caps. Everyone has a piece of this? No not everyone has a piece of the pie. In fact the only one that has a legitimate hand is are friend AA really, but if everyone is willing to play then way not mister 2 overcards K,Q. This is schooling but its not random mayhem either. The turn card is the make are break card for everyone involved we already had a cap on 2 streets, this is when the schooling will likely stop and not before. Now interestly enuff we have an enormouse pot when his open ended straight comes. Of course theres no reason to stop now. Trying to illustrate that the pre-flop action was illrelvent because everyone was willing to go in with marginal to slightly above average holdings. The flop was also undecernable because everyone was willing to reraise the next player. Just some thoughts. Your all right this was a group of fish schooling. Or at very least it was a team trapping Mr. AA. But I have seen this done by very good players and have done so myself, although I generally was holding a legitimate something something when the flop came. | ||
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| Re: when to lay down AA, CanuckJohnny, 7. Jul 2003 06:51 | ||
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| In all my haste as a first time poster, I made a mistake.. The SB player had KdQd, not clubs as my original post.. I think that makes his play more understandable. Sorry for the confusion, but thanks to all for great insight Cheers, | ||
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| Re: when to lay down AA, 4 POKER, 7. Jul 2003 07:10 | ||
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| Canuck, We can't control what our opponents are willing to call and or bet and raise with. Sometimes you come across a player who just goes *Nuts* to say the very least. But with your hand (A-A) and the flop that was out there....you were getting way the best of it. You played your hand right, you just got a bad break on it, that's all. Best regards. 4 POKER | ||
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