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Server Time: 10/11/2008 12:42:42 PM PACIFIC |
 2c 4c Ac Premium, non-flush play, flintsword, 6. Jul 2003 10:56 | ||
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| There are always the hands that bug me, and my friends are evenly split on this one. Online NL multi-table tournament game in the Round 2 of the WPO Warmup series at www.bugsysclub.com, so everyone has bought in for $6+$1 or qualified from the Round 1 multitable freeroll. Players are all tough and experienced but there are still some squirrels in the tournament (me and the maniac for sure!) There were 96 players at the beginning and we are down to eight tables (80 people) Blinds were at 100/200, no ante yet, I think. Nothing in my notes at least. I raised 3BB in MP with Ad Ks reraised by the player immediately to my left another 3BB (because he is a maniac), one caller in LP, and I called. Everyone else folded. I was not too happy calling instead of raising here but my reasoning that I wanted the maniac in to raise later in the hand. I think this reasoning is cracked, but that was my thinking at the time and I called. After suffering with this guy on my left so far in the tournament, only playing and winning with very good hands, I did not want to go all in against some misc pair where I would become a slightly uneven coin flip. The flop was : 2c 4c Ac Top pair with a prime kicker. The maniac "might" have AA (I cannot see 3 5 being played here at all), but how can you tell? He raises with anything. I was worried about two clubs but decided anyways to check raise since one thing was for sure, the maniac would bet. I checked. Maniac bets the minimum amount, LP folds. Based on previous play, I felt that he had no set, certainly no AA, and no flush, or he would have rammed it. I raised All in. He called which told me I had either been snookered or he had a high club in his hand. He turned over Kc 7d. Flush draw. Turn was 9d and the River was 5h, so I won. I have a real nagging feeling that my play was wrong. One person informed me that a minimum bet play in this position by someone with Kc Xc is a classic trap and I can now have the horseshoes surgically removed from my butt (colourful, but we get the meaning ...). Should I have just raised a small amount? To get information, but from my opponent, being a bon fide maniac, should I expect anything else but a reraise? The same person suggested a raise of a third of my stack (about 10BB) to put the question to the player. A flat call was also suggested to see if a club drops. No club, All in. Club drops small bet. Can you tell I am real unhappy about this hand? Any and all detailed feedback on this hand is appreciated. Don't pull any punches. flintsword | ||
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| Re: 2c 4c Ac Premium, non-flush play, stdioh, 6. Jul 2003 15:39 | ||
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| I think that the mistake you made here was a preflop mistake. Now this all depends on style, so I can be sure that there will be people on this forum who disagree with me, but: The maniac is very very likely to have a hand worse than yours. Even if he has a small pair, it isn't such a big deal since you are against a third opponent. The third opponent didn't try to isolate the maniac either, so it looks like he's a little weak. Possibly he's on a medium pair like TT or JJ or he could be running AQs or some such hand. Either way, I'd say it is pretty clear that he won't want to call all-in with it. So when the betting comes around to you here, I'd say it is one of the rare times when it is ok to push all in with AK early in a tournament. You push, the maniac comes in, and the third player either donates the 9BB he has already put in or calls with a hand that is a coin flip to your AK at best and badly dominated at worst. Of course what you don't want is for him to also have AK and be eating up your outs with a maniac on 22. Really you want to fold him off here. All that said, if the maniac is as bad as you made him out to be, I'd say that pushing here is ok. Since you just called, however, when you hit your ace on the suited board, betting is essential. You really need to make a pot sized bet here, because you don't want anybody drawing to a singal club and thus you want to make enough of a bet to take away their odds. Yes, you get pot committed this way, but IMHO, it is the only way to play this. If somebody has the made flush, well tough. You're likely to get called here by AQ from the solid player, holding the queen of clubs because he may think he's good now and has the redraw, but you should fold off Kc7s and if he doesn't fold, that's ok...he's paying way too much to draw. But you checked and the maniac made a minimum bet. I'm usually pretty frightened when a maniac makes a minimum bet. I find that the guys who chuck chips so badly still try to slowplay a monster, but have a hard time resisting the urge to bet anything, so a minimum bet is a big alarm bell here. I wouldn't abandon the hand over it though. I'd throw in a minimum checkraise and see what he does. Now if he's really got the flush, his mania will get the best of him and he'll push all in - you can get away from the hand then. If he calls your checkraise then when a blank hits the turn, that is the time to press him. Nonetheless, you can see why AK is such a hard hand to play against a maniac. | ||
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| Re: 2c 4c Ac Premium, non-flush play, Big_Slick, 6. Jul 2003 19:05 | ||
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| Hey flintsword, I'm not real crazy about the all-in bet here. Too many bad things can happen. 1) He could have the flush. If not, he still could be one card away in case another club falls. If that card comes, you are screwed. 2) He could also have an ace. With 4 other cards to hit the board, he could pair up with one of them and beat you with 2 pair. 3) Maybe he has a pocket pair. If so, trips will knock you out. 4) If he's holding a three in his hand, he's got you with a straight. I realize that these may sound like long shots but this is what gets players kicked from tourneys all the time. Some idiot doesn't know his ass from his elbow and gets lucky with a miracle draw and your left mumbling to yourself. Rather than going all-in, why not just milk this guy of half his chips. That way if he does beat you or has you beat, you still have enough chips and time to make a rally. I like to reserve the all-in move for when I'm 90% sure I've got the best of it and can hold on when all the cards have been drawn. I read once where someone compared NLHE to a mine field. He said the idea was to maneuver through the mine field without getting blown up. He acknowledged that from time to time, you would get hurt and injured but as long as you didn't step directly on a mine, you'd be ok. I always liked that analogy. | ||
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| Re: 2c 4c Ac Premium, non-flush play, Nathaniel Brous, 6. Jul 2003 19:30 | ||
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| Hey Big Slick. That would have to have been the Richard Tatalovich interview (part 4). RT: I view each tournament as a gigantic minefield that I must navigate my way through without getting blown up. I'm likely to be wounded several times along the way, but as long as none are fatal, I'll get through to the other side. This analogy keeps me focused on major danger...it is lurking nearby and every step of the way. Thinking this way helps me stay focused and, hopefully, prevent a catastrophic event. http://www.pokerpages.com/articles/interviews/richard-tatalovich01.htm http://www.pokerpages.com/articles/interviews/richard-tatalovich02.htm http://www.pokerpages.com/articles/interviews/richard-tatalovich03.htm http://www.pokerpages.com/articles/interviews/richard-tatalovich04.htm I thought all four were good reads. - Nathaniel Brous | ||
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| Re: 2c 4c Ac Premium, non-flush play, johnny, 7. Jul 2003 11:09 | ||
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| I agree about going all-in in tournaments. I do not claim to be an expert, but I very rarely will call all-in. I'm not going to put my whole stack up at the risk of some idiot drawing out on me in a tournament when that might be exactly what I'd do in a ring game. Once you're out of a tournament there's no getting back in (usually). You can always get more chips in a ring game. Usually the only time I go all-in at all is when I've got pocket Aces pre-flop after I've been re-raised twice (or all-in the first raise). I also loosen up when I'm quite low on chips of course. Johnny. | ||
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| Re: 2c 4c Ac Premium, non-flush play, Big_Slick, 7. Jul 2003 14:03 | ||
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| The best opportunities to go all-in revolve around over-eager, under-experienced players. Players who think they know what they are doing but a really clueless. They think they are in the drivers seat only to get out-played and out-smarted. | ||
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