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Server Time: 11/21/2008 6:27:59 PM PACIFIC |
 Is this a good play?, MozMan, 5. Jul 2003 17:56 | ||
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| I've been playing a lot of limit HE SNGs lately, and I've stumbled accross something that's happened a number of times, and has worked out every time so far. I'm just not sure if I've been getting lucky, and maybe having some positive reinforcement for a play that will be negative in the long run. Opinions are appreciated. This is how is it usually comes down: I'm in the SB and get dealt a hand that is marginal at best, and certainly something I would never play normally, but maybe pretty good heads-up, like Q7o or something similar. I'm ready to fold, but the table folds around to me, so I decide to try to steal the BB and raise. Each time I've done this, the BB has called my raise and we see the flop heads-up. The flop misses me completely and comes up rags. As I'm UTG, I'm not sure what to do, so I've been betting out to keep up the illusion. Each time, the BB now folds to me and I earn the extra bet from his pre-flop call. Let me know you think. Is the bet on the flop good, or have I been getting lucky? -Moz "Have you seen the Motor Vehicle Bureau? It's a Leper colony down there!" | ||
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| Re: Is this a good play?, Big_Slick, 5. Jul 2003 18:19 | ||
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| Hey Moz... This is a great play but you need to use it sparingly. After the second or third time, the BB is going to figure out what you are up to. Of course, just when he does, you might very well catch a good hand and bury him anyways. Whenever you are heads up with a player though, it is always better to take the lead than to play passive. If I'm heads up and first to act after the flop (in an unraised pot), I'll always lead out regardless of what I have. If that doesn't win me the pot, I'll even bet the turn. Facing a full bet, usually the player will fold if he has nothing or even just a small piece. Some people are reading this going "yeah, but what do you do when the other player does have something?" You fold. You can't bluff your way every time. But with this play against 1 player, you only need to be successful half the time to make money. Also, when the board flops rags, this is an especially good opportunity. Moreover, when you are heads up and get checked to, you need to bet 100% of the time. More time than not, your opponent is surrendering the pot to you and you need to give him the opportunity to fold his hand. Hope this helps! | ||
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| Re: Is this a good play?, MozMan, 5. Jul 2003 18:40 | ||
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| Hey- Thanx for the insight, Slick. I guess the reason it's been working so well is that I haven't had the opportunity to use it agains the same opponent more than twice. I've used it once or twice in each SNG that I've played over the last several days. I will keep in mind not to abuse it in the same game though. Thanx again! -Moz "Have you seen the Motor Vehicle Bureau? It's a Leper colony down there!" | ||
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| Re: Is this a good play?, 4 POKER, 5. Jul 2003 18:52 | ||
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| Remember....when it's just you and the BB, your holding does not have to be as strong as if you were first to act after the BB, (you know, UTG). Yes,you are out of position, but the hands that you can play in this spot can tend to be a little less as strong. Holding cards like Ace x and even K x become very strong against a blind. And if you play very well out of the SB with just contending with the BB, and are aware that these types of holdings can be played with more aggresion, then make the raise. It's much better to raise with these hands then it would be to just limp in. More often then not, their own holding will not be good enough to call a raise with, so if you're going to play it, I think you should raise. But I wouldn't be raising with just anything, the higher cards will play much better in this spot and the smaller pairs should be raised as well. I'm not that crazy about the Q-7o though, that one I'd probably let go, but that's just me. Hands like 5-6 suited and Q rag and J rag should also be folded. They're just not strong enough to play in that spot. (or any spot for that matter...not 5-6, just the Q rag and the J rag). I think you'd be better off folding those starters and wait for a hand that consisted of at least a K or an Ace or a Q that has a much stronger kicker. But when you do raise preflop (regardless of your holding), if you feel that even your high card is the nuts at this point, then make the bet and give him the chance to fold). Not always, but sometimes, especially against all small rags. Hands like Q-K all the way down to Q-10 can be raised in that spot as well but alot is going to depend on the type of player who's in the BB. If he's extremely aggresive, then you'll have to pick your spots more cautiously but if he's passive, then you can raise more, and against that type of opponent, that is what I would do. Hands like J-10, 10-9, can also be played here, but you don't necessarily have to raise with them either. It's definitely a hand that can be played, but I still wouldn't be going overboard with them. They may be too hard to get away from after you raise and get called, so if you just limp in sometimes with these starters, you may save an extra bet when you don't flop good enough and when you do happen to get a really favorable flop, you may be able to make more that way ,too. You might flop a J and your opponent may flop second pair, and because you decided to not raise preflop, he may be stuck in there now paying you off with a hand that he may not have called you with had you did chose to raise it before the flop. And when you don't hit, you can just save that extra bet and not have to feel that you need to try and be the aggresor with a hand that may not be strong enough in doing so. Sometimes when we raise before the flop (even against just the BB), we find the need to press the pot the entire way. You will find yourself in many bad spots that can show poor results when chosing to raise with weak holdings, so if you want to be the aggresor, than just make sure you A) have a really good read over your opponent ,B) you are able to release it when it just missed you entirely, and C) play hands that have more strength (Ax and Kx). 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Is this a good play?, onlinechamp, 5. Jul 2003 19:04 | ||
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| http://forum.onlinechamppoker.com/ 4poker I dont know check the above out | ||
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| Re: Is this a good play?, Jav, 7. Jul 2003 11:02 | ||
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| That's an excellent analysis. I'd just like to mention that playing from the Big Blind can work very similar. I will raise the SB limper (limit games and tourneys) at least as often as I check and see the flop. The reason being is that many people will raise from the SB with ANY legitimate hand, and many hands that aren't legitimate. You have to be careful of when the SB actually has the hand though. If the SB is the kind of player to try to steal many blinds, and he catches an actual hand, then it can be pretty hard to read. | ||
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| Re: Is this a good play?, stdioh, 5. Jul 2003 19:01 | ||
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| Moz. First off, I wouldn't call Q7o a good hand heads up. I'd call it a marginal hand heads up that you could call a minimum raise out of the BB with or that you could limp with (I'm assuming we're talking a heads up freeze out?) but it ain't great. Now generally speaking, I would say that it is too weak a hand to steal with often, but it is on the borderline, so it isn't horrid to steal with it. I at least want a suited king, K8+ Q9+ or any ace to steal. Anyhow, when you got called and the flop missed you, you should really decide whether or not to steal based on what the board looks like. If the board were to come A23, for instance, your bet looks good here because you are representing an ace and should be able to fold your opponent off his hand - and he isn't likely to have a 2 or 3 either. If he had an ace, he would likely have restolen. Remember though that when you do this you have to play weak - you can't call a raise if he comes back at you. Also, if the flop comes something like 89J with a flush draw and you have no piece of it, you're better off just checking. Lastly, I do like to semibluff slim draws here. So if I flop a gutshot heads up in this situation, I'll definitely bet the hand just because there are more ways to win that way. | ||
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| Re: Is this a good play?, MozMan, 5. Jul 2003 19:18 | ||
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| Thanx all- I really appreciate the feedback. What I'm getting out of it is this (in a nutshell): Overall, the play is a good one; but I need to think a little harder on hand selection to make it work more often. I really thought any paint was probably good for the steal because it's so likely that the BB has nothing at all. I do like studioh's suggestion of using the post-flop bet more when I can represent something that coordinates with the flop, like an Ace. Thanx again to all, I really appreciate the insight. -Moz "Have you seen the Motor Vehicle Bureau? It's a Leper colony down there!" | ||
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