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Server Time: 11/21/2008 6:12:24 PM PACIFIC |
 When to lay it down?, mongi, 5. Jul 2003 13:16 | ||
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| I limped in from middle position with AhTs after an early limper in a typical 4-8 holdem game. Two players call behind me and the button raises both blinds fold. I am not familiar with this players raising standards as he has not raised until now which is about an hour after I sat at the table. He seems to be a fairly loose player. The flop comes Ad 8c 9c. I bet and everyone folds to the button who raises. I have a pretty tight image. At this point I am thinking I am dead if he has a ace but maybe he doesn't so I call. It is heads up. I check and he bets. At this point what are your thoughts of what to do . Do I call him down? maybe my hand is good and if not I can get info about what he is raising with. The turn is a Qc the river 2d I call him down he had AQ. At what point do you get away from this hand? or do you just pay the player off. | ||
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| Re: When to lay it down?, PairTheBoard, 5. Jul 2003 14:17 | ||
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| I think the time to get away from that hand is before the flop. LOL. Seriously, I don't think it qualifies for tight play. AJo is marginal in middle position. jmo Check calling all the way is generally about the best you can do with Aces poor kicker. If he was a loose player who hadn't raised in an hour, I would give him a lot of credit for the raise. With Players who limp in on a lot of hands and then suddenly put in a raise before the flop, I try to remind myself that even loose players can be dealt very good cards. Sometimes in that situation I might check call the flop to see what happens and maybe bet the turn. If he has you beat he may slow down and you can check out the river. You may even see him fold the turn. If you get raised you can probably give it up. I wouldn't play it this way too often though. | ||
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| Re: When to lay it down?, Allyc, 5. Jul 2003 14:36 | ||
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| Given his aggressive play with A, 8, 9 on the board, i personally would have folded to the raise. Even if he has only A, 8 he has you beat. You're hoping for A, 7 down. I would expect him to turn over A,K A,Q or 99. He may be trying to bluff you out with a hand like pocket kings, but A,10 is too weak a hand to call all the way with to find out. But I think much better, would be to raise from mid-position with no callers so far, and attempt to steal the blinds,if the button reraises you can fold, and if he calls you can play it as above. Regards, Allyc. | ||
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| Re: When to lay it down?, stdioh, 5. Jul 2003 19:10 | ||
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| This is precisely why you don't want to play a hand like AT. Even AJ is a bit crufty in the wrong places. It is a tough decision, but if he is a good player you should probably muck your AT to his raise when it is clear that you are heads up. If there were others still in the hand to act, his raise could be to weed out the draws and such and there would be a chance that you were good and that he was holding AXs ... but even still ... this is the sort of hand that you need to be able to get away from. | ||
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| Re: When to lay it down?, Big_Slick, 5. Jul 2003 20:05 | ||
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| Hi Mongi, Was just wondering why you bet into the raiser here after the flop. You had to figure the chances were good that the button was going to raise you. The fact that you opened after the flop and then continued to play after the raise confuses me. Thanks! | ||
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| Re: When to lay it down?, Schuster, 5. Jul 2003 21:03 | ||
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| I would bet into the raiser every time here to see where he is at. And if a reasonable player bet into me after I raised preflop, I'd probably go ahead and fold something like jacks or tens. It'd be a different story heads up or against only 2 opponents, but trying to represent top pair when you don't have it against 4 or more is just silly. I agree with the others that A-To in middle position is a bit shaky, although it really depends on the texture of the game. The raise before the flop and the raise on the flop is enough information to know that you are beaten though, I think you should have mucked to the raise. Lee | ||
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| Re: When to lay it down?, Big_Slick, 5. Jul 2003 22:11 | ||
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| Hey Lee, I don't disagree with betting into the raiser. (Although personally, I wouldn't do it every time.) It's a good play sometimes. It's calling the raise and then calling to the bitter end that I disagree with. If Mongi had flopped top 2 pair, this would be an excellent opportunity to bet into the raiser. | ||
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| Re: When to lay it down?, Schuster, 5. Jul 2003 22:30 | ||
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| > I don't disagree with betting into the raiser. (Although personally, I wouldn't do it every > time.) It's a good play sometimes. You're right, saying I would do something "every time" is a bit off, and probably not good advice. In this situation, I generally do not like to check to the raiser though. With a field of 5, just a flop bet from the raiser is very unlikely to take the pot right there. If he has KK - TT, or KQs or something, a loose (weak) player will still bet if he raised before the flop, and then you have no idea where you stand. If you bet and he raises, you've lost the small bet (that you were probably going to call anyway if you checked and he bet) but you've saved yourself from losing more due to more information. Would this loose player raise the flop after you bet with KK - TT? Maybe. Maybe he's read Hellmuth's book and would raise you here with pocket 8's to see where he's at. Even if that's the case, I still think he stands to lose less by betting and folding to the raise. > It's calling the raise and then calling to the bitter > end that I disagree with. I agree with you here 100%. > If Mongi had flopped top 2 pair, this would be an excellent opportunity to bet into the > raiser. Agree here too! I might checkraise if the board was right and try to trap some limpers for an extra bet. I'll go with the general cop out answer of "it depends" and wait for some more insights on this thread. Folding top pair on the flop is not an easy thing, and it definately comes down to discipline. Lee | ||
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| Re: When to lay it down?, DJpoker, 6. Jul 2003 01:14 | ||
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| Hey Mongi, Already some good advice. A 10 is marginal. My only other train of thought would be (and I might get shelled for this but oh well) raise him right back. You will definitely know where u stand for cheaper and u will probably get to the river for free if he just calls because he will be afraid of a check raise on the turn. At the point of your reraise, he will either slam it back at you or as i said before simply call thinking u have him beat. Either way you know where you stand. I know this is a bit risky, but if you've been playing an hour you should know the table to a large extent. I will wait for the pros to crucify me, but my theory definitely randomizes your play and IMHO should be tried once or twice a session. DJpoker | ||
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| Re: When to lay it down?, 4 POKER, 6. Jul 2003 02:03 | ||
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| The problem that I see with that play is, usually when a player goes for a check-raise on the turn, he will tend to slowplay the flop. Once he leads out with A-10 and gets raised and then decides to 3 bet the flop, a check-raise will be less likely to be his play on the turn, If he shows too much strength on the flop and then backs off on the turn card, that doesn't necessarily mean that he will be able to get that free card on the turn. If the player on the button held an Ace with a bigger kicker than the 10, once his opponent checks the turn now, he probably will put him on an Ace with a smaller kicker and play back at him anyway. Had the A-10 hand flopped two pair, I don't think he would be going for a check-raise on the turn, either...not with that sizable pot. So in that spot, once the A-10 hand checks it now, it would be hard for the player on the button to give him a better holding than his. That's how I see it. I would take that as a sign of weakness (Ace with small kicker), as opposed to thinking that this player had a big hand. Now, if he did flop a monster (like a set), he would probably do one of two things. He would either: try to check the flop (as a slowplay) and then go for the check-raise on the turn where the betting round is now doubled, OR he would play his hand aggressively on the flop and on the turn as well, so IMO, I don't think he would be able to get that free card that he was intending on. (especially if the player on the button has a big Ace). There's nothing wrong with the play of trying to play back at him on the flop as long as you continue with the bet on the turn. But keep in mind....if the player has an Ace (or even better, a set), if the A-10 holding leads into him on the turn, if he gets raised, he will have to fold because his holding is not strong enough. That's the problem with playing A-10 in MP, because once a player raises him pre-flop (and this player has not raised in an hour),and an Ace comes out on the flop...unless he flops two pair, (and that still may not be good here) his holding would be only marginal at best. I would rather play A-10 in LP as a means to steal the blinds or, if I were in one of the blinds and everyone folded to the button, I may even play back at him here (pre-flop) thinking that my holding may be the best one given the fact the button is likely to raise with a mass variety of holdings in that spot. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: When to lay it down?, mongi, 6. Jul 2003 12:41 | ||
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| Thanks for the feedback? I agree I should have laid the hand down after he raised me on the flop. How do you guys proceed with a hand like AT. Some of you mentioned the problems of playing AT in middle position; does this mean you only play it from late position? I am sure it depends on what type of game you are in. If the game is loose passive would you play this from EP or middle? What other positions would you play this hand. How about if you are in the big blind and a good player raises from EP, do you muck it? Would you muck a hand like AJ offsuite in this situation. What if the raise comes from middle to late position but still from a decent player? And while I have you, how about KT offsuite. I usually just play this hand no earlier than the button in an unraised pot. If several loose players have limped in, I may play it from the cutoff or one off the cutoff. My game has greatly improved and I appreciate all of your advice, The area I most need to get better at is my preflop decisions. | ||
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| Re: When to lay it down?, shorn, 7. Jul 2003 06:17 | ||
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| I find AT to be a lot of trouble in EP and MP. Frankly, you will generally need two pair to win with it in a normal game because flopping an Ace is most of the time not good enough and if you flop a 10, there are too many overcards that can beat you. So, I generally use it only as a steal the blinds hand from late position (last 3 spots) or perhaps in the SB without a raise. Looking over my earlier records (and $$ lost with this hand) has convinced me that (for me) this is the way to play it. | ||
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| Re: When to lay it down?, 4 POKER, 7. Jul 2003 06:42 | ||
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| Hey mongi, To answer some of those questions, My preference is to play A-10 from LP or out of the blinds for a small price. If I'm in LP and everyone has folded to me (or even if there was just one limper), I would raise with this hand and try to get it heads up against the one limper. And given that I would have good position over this player, will give me a better advantage. That's if I chose to play it at all. Now if I'm in the blinds and there was a raise by a EP or MP player, I would proably call the one extra bet out of the BB but wouldn't call a raise out of the SB. It depends where the raise came from (solid-tight player). If the player was really tight then I would muck A-10 out of the SB but I would call the extra bet out of the BB with A-10 and A-J knowing that I'd have to flop perfect (two pair) or I would muck it if he showed too much aggression. Now K-10o is pretty weak ( IMO ) from almost any position except if you're in the blinds with no raise or in a very late position and are trying to steal the blinds with it. But other than that, it's really not a good hand to get attached to on a regular basis, it's really not. The hand has kicker problems as well and unless I was suited and was in good position to not have to pay too much pre-flop, than I'd probably wait for a better spot. 4 POKER | ||
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