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Server Time: 2/13/2012 5:19:25 AM PACIFIC |
 Fix a leak help!, donrhem, 4. Jul 2003 10:24 | ||
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| I think this has been discussed before but I need a review. I have noticed that when I get to a new table and don't know the players yet I call river raises or bets that I normally wouldn't. I am getting very good pot odds, leading to the river and a pair hits or a flush draw hits. I will bet out and get raised and I call since I don't know how the person plays. Every time I do this I fell what they have is the boat, flush or straight but I call anyway saying to myself I want to see how this person plays. After I get beat I yell at my self for calling or betting and then I settle down. I have tried counting to 10 before doing anything but my hand doesn't listed to what is left of my brain:-) Thanks, Don | ||
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| Re: Fix a leak help!, Banning, 4. Jul 2003 11:24 | ||
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| If a scare card comes down against an opponent that you don't know much about maybe you should try checking the river to him and then calling. If you plan on calling a raise anyway, maybe it is a good idea to learn for cheaper. Betting the river when a scare card comes down sounds a bit like FPS (fancy play syndrome) especially against people you don't know. You should be betting when you have the best of it. Your bet on the river sounds like you don't have the best of it. Anybody else want to agree or disagree with me? I am definitely not one of the hardcore good advisors, but it is my perspective anyhow and I hope it helps. | ||
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| Re: Fix a leak help!, 4 POKER, 4. Jul 2003 11:47 | ||
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| Banning, To be honest with you, I was going to respond to this post myself but then when I read your post, I found that we shared the same views. So why post my opinions when they would only come across as redundant to what you just said? I have nothing to add here at all.....I agree with your comments, indeed. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Fix a leak help!, donrhem, 4. Jul 2003 12:01 | ||
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| Banning & 4 Poker, I agree with what you said and I understand it. My problem is I already know what I should be doing but I can't stop from doing it:-) I am looking for another way to slow me down when I am at a new table in that position. Thanks again to both of you for all of your help and comments on the forum. Don | ||
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| Re: Fix a leak help!, 4 POKER, 4. Jul 2003 13:22 | ||
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| Donrhem, First, I can't take any credit in helping you. Banning was the one who gave you the advice, not me. I just agreed with him! (LOL). If this is a problem that you can't control, then how can Bannings advice be of any help to you? You should listen to what he is saying and try applying that into your game. It's a smart approach (tool) to fix that leak of yours....... At least try it, it can't hurt. Or.... if you still are having difficulties when it comes to reading your opponents correctly, then when you do sit down in the game, then may I suggest that you sit out for a couple of rounds (or the maximum time allowed that is given to you), and just take that time to "observe" the actions and reactions of the players that you were concerned about. If you can't do that (lack of patience, LOL), then do one of two things, 1) play in games where you are familiar with all the players or 2) don't play at all because when you make fuzzy decisions that wind up costing you a lot of extra bets, you will show a poor result in the long run. We are trying to help you here but you must be willing to put a "plug" (advice, combined with acceptance and understanding of it) in that leak of yours or the leak will never close and all the fluid (your money) will just keep leaking and leaking until there is nothing left and you now find yourself all dried up (busto). Get it?.........I thought so! 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Fix a leak help!, shorn, 7. Jul 2003 05:59 | ||
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| I would disagree with 4P on just one point here. I think sitting down at the table and sitting out a few rounds is not the best way to go. Most people at the table will notice that you are doing this and either become angry that you aren't playing or they will say "this guy knows what he is doing, so I need to play better/tighter against him". I think a better way to go about it is to sit down and play super tight for three or four rounds. Basically, you get to do the same "scouting" but no one notices. And, it costs you only the blinds for those rounds assuming you don't play any hands. Also, most of your scouting should be done from the rail before you get seated if possible. One other point to add to Banning's great response is that I will base a lot of my calling a raise on the board's texture. If the flop is 922 and the flush card comes for me on the turn, then it is less likely that my opponent has the full house than is the flop was JTT. Also, if I get raised on the turn, I would hardly ever bet the river, even if it gave me the nuts. I would rather (if I was first to act) check raise the river or check call if my hand is good enough to call. | ||
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| Re: Fix a leak help!, stdioh, 4. Jul 2003 14:07 | ||
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| It is ok to call a lot of river bets that you lose as long as in doing so you save the odd entire pot. The bigger a pot is on the river the more you should call with what you think is the second best hand because it will cost you exactly 1 big bet to call and be wrong, but it'll cost you many big bets to fold and be wrong. As for getting raised on the river, you are probably betting the river too much. I generally won't bet a river unless I am pretty sure that there is more likelihood of a hand worse than mine calling than there is of a hand being better than mine. Thus if I have top 2 pair and the flush comes, depending on a lot of things, I might bet the river in the hopes of an opponent having 1 pair or a worse 2 pair. If I'm holding only top pair however, I'm not going to bet here because the only hands that will call that I can beat are worse top pairs. When you bet a river, get raised, and call, then lose you are losing 2 bets. Essentiallyt you should never bet a river unless you are willing to call a raise. | ||
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| Re: Fix a leak help!, ranwel, 4. Jul 2003 22:26 | ||
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| Next time you are in that position, just before calling, take a $20 bill out of your pocket, set fire to it and let it burn. Not really, but think about doing it. :) ranwel | ||
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| Re: Fix a leak help!, PairTheBoard, 5. Jul 2003 00:51 | ||
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| There are three factors going on when you put out a value bet on the river after a scare card has hit. 1. You may get raised and have trouble getting away from calling it. 2. The value bet is LESS likely to be called precisely because of the scare card. 3. You give up the value from inviting a bluff. Some players will not call your bet but will put out a scare bluff . That's not to say the value bet should never be made. But notice how often the value bet doesn't get called by a calling station who you are confident will call it. The scare card gives him an exuse to do what he should do anyway and lay it down. | ||
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| Re: Fix a leak help!, 4 POKER, 5. Jul 2003 01:19 | ||
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| Great post. Very, very, helpful. I have always believed that you can sometimes extract more money out of an opponent by just using the check-call play (and I do find that to be the case in many situations when against certain types of players). The part that you mentioned, the play where you just check the river as to induce a bluff by your opponent? It's a good play to use because, if you are going to put in one bet, then why not try to put in that bet by letting your opponent bet it for you. If you have a decent hand (top pair, good kicker), but now sense that the scare card could hurt/beat you....if you bet and get raised, you will be putting yourself in a tough spot now. Either you call the raise and lose one extra bet when you're beat, or you may fold but could have very well been bluffed out of the pot by a player who just put a move on you. It's a tough spot to be in so by just checking the river card now, your opponent may think that you aren't strong enough and may be more inclined now to try and get you to fold by betting his own inferior hand now, and maybe given the size of the pot, his bet would be correct (as a steal attempt) but your call will be correct also. If he has nothing, he won't be able to call your bet anyway and because your own hand isn't that strong anyway(and would have a difficult time paying off a raise in this spot), the check call play could be more profitable.....losing one bet less when your beat, but gaining a bet from a player who tried to bluff you but would never have called your bet had you been the aggressor on the last betting round. It's all about maximizing and minimizing and knowing when and where to make bets, raises, calls, folds AND checks. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Fix a leak help!, DJpoker, 5. Jul 2003 01:38 | ||
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| Great ideas. In my brief stint (by the way session #5 - 4 1/2hrs +185 for those of you who know me already :) I have found that if I check raise in one of my first big pots, the whole table will wonder what your check means every time and you can save quite a few inferior BB hands that way. Based on the original posters notes, it would seem you should observe the game longer before entering. If that's not possible due to people waiting or whatever, then if you are in EP, just check blind. No matter what happens, the other player(s) will view this as a sign of weakness and i would guess most of the time they will bet and if you get the nuts then you can raise. Yes this can lose a few BB here and there, but in the long run I think it will even out. Good luck finding nemo. DJpoker | ||
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| Re: Fix a leak help!, mongi, 5. Jul 2003 12:41 | ||
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| Knowing when and when not to make value bets at the end separates the good players form the great players. The key is knowing the players and that will come with experience. This to has been one of my leaks, but I think I have finally put a cork in it. One thing I do now is I take a little extra time to figure out what my opponent has on the flop. The other day I was in a kill pot and called a raise from the big blind with As Kd. Two other guys were in the pot, a EP limper and the middle raiser. The flop came Kh 2d 3h. I bet and was raised by the EP, the middle player called. I just called realizing with this flop there was a good chance somebody was on a flush draw, so my hand could get killed on the turn. I knew I was going to call but I took some time to figure what the raiser had. I knew he didn't have two pair or trip 2 or 3 because he wouldn't have been in the hand with those holdings. He didn't have pocket Kings because he would have raised. I bet the turn after a blank hit and was called reluctantly by both players, now I knew the preflop raiser had a heart draw. the river was a blank. I bet the river and got a crying call from the EP who had KQ. In the past I may have just checked it down because I didn't make the effort to think about what these players could be holding. | ||
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