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Server Time: 11/21/2008 6:06:05 PM PACIFIC |
 Just another pot odds question, Scrubbie, 3. Jul 2003 13:00 | ||
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| Let's look at a pot odds situation in "No Limit" (Let's say Live action, so Tourney strategy doesn't come into play) and where you have top pair (good kicker) and you feel there is a draw. We will say you are in late/middle position with Ad 10s. You limp. (You have $200 in front of you) Three people also limp, the small blind, big blind and the button. (None of them are short stacked) You know the "button" to be a player who will raise premium hands preflop, and will limp almost all suited cards. (This is important for my analogy) He is also a Libra. (*lol*) There is about $40 in the pot! (remember this for your answer) The flop brings ... 10h 5h 2s Both blinds check to you. OK .. now your thoughts on the amount you bet and why. I am looking for the reasoning behind "how" much you bet and how it relates to pot odds because there is a heart draw. (I don't want to pollute the replies with my own thoughts, so I will hold off stating how I would play this. Also, don't critique the A-10 offsuit limp, I needed something for my Analogy) Scrubbie "The comforting thing about a bad beat .... there is always another one waiting around the corner, to make you forget about that last one!!!" | ||
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| Re: Just another pot odds question, Blake, 3. Jul 2003 14:25 | ||
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| If I really thought the LP limper was on a heart draw I would bet the pot to reduce his odds and hopefully win it right there.If he called then there is a good chance to get heads up with him and reduce his implied odds a little bit.(assuming the blinds will fold here) I would not bet any amount smaller because any heart,K,Q or J could kill your hand.So I would bet the size of the pot and hope to take it down right there. | ||
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| Re: Just another pot odds question, Scrubbie, 4. Jul 2003 11:36 | ||
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| Answering my own question (but still looking for more thoughts ... hint, hint ... 4poker, moz, wren, stdioh, shorn,TK, etc) I am of the thought that if you bet the amount in the pot then you are only offering 2-1 to anyone drawing. (that is good) BUTT .... with the pot sometimes small, in the case where there wasn't any pre-raising, a pot size bet may still be "CHEAP" for someone to call, in terms of loose players, big chip leaders, etc., thus allowing for people to call with, say, overcards. On the flip side, if you bet much more than the pot, you may be giving someone 3-1 (or even 4-1) on their money, making it good for them to call. This is where I always ponder which is better. Hmmmmmmmm ... Scrubbie "The comforting thing about a bad beat .... there is always another one waiting around the corner, to make you forget about that last one!!!" | ||
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| Re: Just another pot odds question, Schuster, 4. Jul 2003 12:11 | ||
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| Betting more than the pot worsens their odds, it doesn't make them better. If you bet double the pot, they are only getting 3 to 2 on a call, worse than 2 to 1. If they are willing to pay a pot sized bet when odds don't dictate just because the pot is smaller, then let them. You should fight less for smaller pots, they should do the same. They are making a mistake by calling, and it's making you money. I would make a pot sized bet with this hand. Lee | ||
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| Re: Just another pot odds question, 4 POKER, 4. Jul 2003 12:44 | ||
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| Scrubbie, If you read Blake's response to your question, I think you will find that to make good sense,(at least I do). Just to add a few more pointers here: You have covered the style of player the button was, but you didn't mention the type of players that were in the SB and the BB, which would definitely help you to make a more sound decision.(Bet, how much?, check)? You said that you had $200 in front of you and you mentioned that none of these players were short stacked. But what were their chip positions exactly? Were you relaitively short stacked compared to the others? Or were you pretty much around the same mark? That will matter if you decide to push all in here. If you are a shortstack and they have a much larger stack than yours, they may be more inclined to call your all-in bet to try and hit an overpair on the turn. Also, were the SB and the BB tight, trappy, or loose? Let's eliminate "trappy" so we can justify a dollar amount that would be a more correct/accurate amount if you chose to make a bet on the flop. If you feel that the blinds had checked because they were uninterested with that flop and were not going to call you if you bet, then you're only contending with the player who is behind you now (the button). If you think that the pkayer on the button is on a drawing hand and is the type of player who will call your bet (regardless of the amount), then I would be more apt to bet more than less. If he's not aware of the correct implied odds, then make him pay to draw out on you. But you must have a good read on this player so you can make the most accurate bet possible. At that point, if I were going to make any bet at all, I would bet the full $200 and make him make the decision on whether he wants to commit his chips on a drawing hand or an overpair. Keep in mind, you did hold an Ace, which will give you a bit of an edge if 1), he held an Ace as well and 2), if he did happen to hit an overpair on the turn, you still would have redraw to spiking the Ace on the river. Ok, the latter of the two would be more of a longshot, but they are extra outs to your holding that you should factor in here. If the button always raises his premium hands (which you stated that he did), unless you can put him on a low set (which would be impossible to do at this point, given there was no betting yet), your best bet IMO, would be to go all-in and take a stand. Or....plan on checking the flop with the intentions of folding, because once you check the flop, you will be allowing the possibility of that round to be checked around completely, including the button. And once that turn card hits, you may be faced with an overcard which would leave it very difficult for you to call any betting that might take place now, unless the turn card is the Ace (giving you 2 pair). Betting just a small amount does not seem to be the best way to take down the pot. If the players are loose but passive, then make them pay to draw out on you. But....be aware of the player/s who tend to play "trappy" from their "blinds position". Having a strong read on your opponents will make it all that much easier for you to make a more logical decision as well, and that includes $ amount. But if you feel that at that point that you do hold the best hand....make the bet and make it difficult for them to call you. Your hand is not a powerhouse but it is strong enough for you to protect it. You may agree or disagree, but that is the choice that I would probably make here. But I am no expert on N/L so............. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Just another pot odds question, Scrubbie, 4. Jul 2003 13:26 | ||
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| I should have been more specific with how much each player had in my Analogy. I would state that they all had the same as me. I really posed the question awful. I was trying to state a situation where you have top pair with a sweet kicker, but there is a draw on the table. You feel the other may have a draw, middle pair, or overcards. (Hmmmm ... I guess I should have just come out and said that. I'm a knucklehead) Thanks for your response. I do agree with all of your points, and Blake's too. When I am placed in the situation I described, I usually either go All-In, or make it a little more than the pot. If the pot were $40 ... I would make it $65, so they would have to pay $65 to win $95. (Thus making it a bad bet for them) I just question if my All-In move sometimes gives them the "implied odds" they are looking for. Yea ... that is what I wanted to ask. (*few*, that was a reach!) Any thoughts on the comparison to whether you just bet a little more than the pot, or make it really expensive? Scrubbie "The comforting thing about a bad beat .... there is always another one waiting around the corner, to make you forget about that last one!!!" | ||
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| Re: Just another pot odds question, 4 POKER, 4. Jul 2003 13:43 | ||
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| Scrubbie, Schuster's response seems to be much different than mine. He may be more correct with his thinking/reasoning for a pot sized bet as opposed to an all-in bet. I'm sure the other N/L experts will respond to your question as well giving you a little bit better feel for the more correct ($) approach for long term results. ( Schusters theory sounds good to me too). That kind of contradicts what I was suggesting to do but, because my experience is lacking in N/L, I find it more easy now to question my own thoughts. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Just another pot odds question, Schuster, 4. Jul 2003 20:43 | ||
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| My thinking was that against reasonable players, a pot sized bet should do just as much as pushing it all in, except that you're risking a lot more to win the current pot. With a pot sized bet, you're representing top pair with a good kicker, or maybe semi bluffing a heart draw. If you just push it all in, I don't see any hand (except maybe bottom 2 pair) that will call you unless you are beaten in this situation. You're risking $190 to win $40. If you just make a pot sized bet, a king kicker or queen kicker (not so much as if top pair is a 10, but if it were a jack or queen) might call you, and you profit. If I were against tricky but weak players, I might make a smaller bet and hope that they play back at me, then come back over the top of them. If any player played back at me on a pot sized bet, it really comes down to the player. At this point, I'd either want to move in or fold though. I'd rather put the decision on him rather than call off my chips. In any case, I'm far from a no limit expert as well, I was just putting my thoughts out there. 4 poker, you might be right as far as the all in bet. I do disagree with the check and fold option though. You have a good chance of having the best hand right now, why give up the pot for free? Lee | ||
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| Re: Just another pot odds question, 4 POKER, 5. Jul 2003 00:27 | ||
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| Schuster, I think your thoughts make alot of sense, and after thinking about it some more, I feel that might be the more sensible approach. When I had said that he should check with then having the intentions of folding was....I meant that if a player was at this point (the flop) was going to risk the pot by not betting, then he better be ready to fold it on the turn now, because now he has let a card to get there on the turn which could perhaps now put his own holding at risk, Like letting an overcard (JQK) get there for free. That is what I was talking about. But if I held that hand, I wouldn't check the flop, I would bet for sure. But my thinking was to push all-in, where as your thoughts were to make a pot sized bet and giving the reasons that you had written....definitely made good sense, indeed. I think that both plays could be (all-in and pot-sized bet) correct given the situation at hand which includes table texture, players abilities and whether they are loose, tight, trappy, weak,etc. and how YOU may be perceived at that very moment of the game. Those are my thoughts, and will combine them in with yours as to give myself the abilty to have more options, both being correct. I guess that sounds a little contradictory but that's just because everything does depend and to give just one answer may be limiting your other options that may be the more correct option for that particular hand. Long story a little shorter?..........I agree with you and I agree with me! (LOL) ....that's all. Thanks for the breakdown, I appreciate it and found it very helpful. Maybe I should play a N/L tourney and get my feet wet a little bit! (if I do, I'll let you know how I fair....I'll probably get knocked out first OR I'll get hit with the deck and take it all)!!! Take care. Happy and healthy 4th............ 4 POKER | ||
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