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Server Time: 11/21/2008 6:14:58 PM PACIFIC |
 pot odds/implied odds, cold_cash, 3. Jul 2003 10:04 | ||
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| Hey all. I'm new to the forum and have a question about pot odds. I understand the basic concept, but one thing has me a little puzzled. If I have a pair in my hole cards, say an overpair after a flop that has made a straight or flush possible, and I want to bet to drive players out (so they don't make that straight or flush), aren't I giving those players better pot odds by doing so and thus making it correct for them to call? Logically it would seem you would want to make the pot as small as possible so they can't justify betting at their draw, but I know that's not correct either. How does this work, exactly? I know its a big question with probably no concrete answer, but it's been puzzling me. Thanks for any input. | ||
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| Re: pot odds/implied odds, Nathaniel Brous, 3. Jul 2003 10:20 | ||
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| I believe Sklansky coined the term "infinite odds." This is what you offer your opponents when you don't bet at them. You can sometimes manipulate the pot by check raising and forcing the draw to call two bets cold. In general, you are not really betting to get them "out." You are making them pay for the privilege of out drawing you. You are betting when you have the best of it, which is your goal. - Nathaniel Brous P.S. You will encounter many situations in which it is both correct for you to bet and your opponent to call. If you don't own Sklansky's, "Theory of Poker," I strongly encourage you to pick it up. | ||
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| Re: pot odds/implied odds, mongi, 3. Jul 2003 12:39 | ||
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| You never want to let someone draw for free, however, there are some occassions when you will need to back off or even muck your overpair. this happens when you are in a multiway pot, say with five other players and the board is highly coordinated. You must understand that with this many players the collective outs against you can be enormous. There could be 30+ cards that hit the turn that kill your hand. Even if you survive the turn you must also survive the river. Remember that in situations like these money put into the pot favors the best draw not the best hand at the time. So make a good assessment of were you stand in relation to the texture of the board and the number of players. If you determine that your hand is good and will hold up then play it hard by either betting or check-raising. With less people in the pot say 3 or less you need to push until someone pushes back. | ||
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| Re: pot odds/implied odds, stdioh, 3. Jul 2003 12:21 | ||
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| You bet at the pot to make them pay for their draw. The more they have to pay for drawing a card, the more money must be in there for them to take. Now if they have a great draw and you are in a limit game then they can afford to call you based on pot odds, but it is still better for you to make them pay something than nothing. Likewise, it may be incorrect for them to pay 2 bets which is why agression is a good thing even if you aren't sure you have the best hand. One player bets, another raises, and all of a suddent the player with an open ended straight draw has the pot odds that he would have had with a gutshot, plus he's fearing a 3 and 4 bet if he does cold call. Essentially, what it boils down to is this: increase the size of the pot when you are likely to win it and make yourself more likely to win it by folding players who are drawing to hands that will definitely beat you if you make your draw. Now, one nice trick with a tenuous hand involving pot odds manipulation is the following. Lets say that you're on the puck with As3s, there are 3 limpers, you limp, the SB folds, and the BB checks so 5 of you see the flop. Now the flop comes AhKd5h. There's a flush draw, a straight draw, and even a wheel gutshot draw available if the BB has small cards. You have top pair with no kicker (A3 vs A2 always plays the board for a kicker unless A2 hits his kicker to win) and are in position. Now it checks around to you. You could bet to try to drive out gutshots, but players will hold onto their legitimate flush draws and a gutshot to the nut straight with 2 big cards can also be alluring. Assuming that we are at a loose passive table, you would think that betting is a great idea here, but you might have somebody out there with a better but bad ace who will call you as well. Thus I would check this here. Now if the turn is a brick and it checks around to you, you can bet it and rob everybody of their pot odds. Not only that, but you cna be much more confident that your hand is the best. Likewise if somebody else bets you can usually call him down hoping for him to be holding a king. If the turn hits a draw and nobody bets you could be looking into an amateur checkraise attempt, so you can let it go by anyway. If a draw comes and somebody bets at it, you can muck your cards cheaply. Essentially, in this rare circumstance, you want to wait for the higher limit to hurt pot odds for somebody drawing on the river, but in general you want to make them pay to draw, because most of the time they won't get there. Now there are also times when you are drawing *and* have the best hand. Lets say you have AA and the flop comes K73 rainbow with 3 bets in preflop and 7 players seeing the flop. You're not going to fold anybody off of any pair and the chance of winning it with AA unimproved is very slim. However, unless you suspect somebody of already having 2 pair or a set, you want to keep betting here. Yes, it is likely that somebody will hit his kicker and beat you with 2 pair, but it is also possible that the board pairs without making somebody trips and that you win with a better 2 pair, that you spike an ace, etc. You want to get your money in while you have the best of it and make each opponent pay the maximum for his 5 outs all the way along. You still need to fold off the players who hit nothing so they don't get a piece of it on the turn and use up more draws on the river. | ||
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| Re: pot odds/implied odds, cold_cash, 3. Jul 2003 18:00 | ||
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| Thanks for all the feedback. I'm still a little fuzzy with the fine points to all this but I'm working on it and I think this forum is a great place to pick up some valuable tips. Once I figure out how to word my questions with specifics I'm sure I'll be posting again (I'm still not exactly sure what my question is... lol) Until then I'll just keep reading. Thanks again. | ||
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