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Server Time: 8/21/2008 9:46:55 PM PACIFIC |
 Bad call on the flop (O8)?, Snorbolus, 2. Jul 2003 18:18 | ||
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| In a loose omaha 8 game I raised 4 limpers, with AsAc2d8h, on the button. Big blind called, as did all of the limpers. The flop came: 5sQc7s Check, check, bet, call, call. I called, big blind called, other checker folded. I am now pretty sure that calling here was a big mistake because (1) I am drawing to low only. (2) I have no chance of scooping, because my only chance of a high (one of the two remaining aces, followed by a paired board on the river - v.slim) would simultaneously make a low possible and counterfeit my draw to one. I am posting to ask if you all agree with my analysis. Also, how about the pre-flop raise? No suits, that 8 isn't really doing anything for the hand. Incidentally, the turn came Ad, I called. The river was 4h, I folded to a bet and a call. It turned out that my set of aces would have been good. I still think that folding on the flop would have been the best play. Snorbolus | ||
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| Re: Bad call on the flop (O8)?, Big_Slick, 2. Jul 2003 18:26 | ||
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| I'm not crazy about the raise. If the hand had been AsAc2s8c it would have been a lot more attractive. Why did you fold your set of aces? Where you worried about a low straight? | ||
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| Re: Bad call on the flop (O8)?, Snorbolus, 2. Jul 2003 18:34 | ||
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| Yes, shouldn't I have been? Snorbolus on 2. Jul 2003 18:26 Big_Slick wrote: > > > I'm not crazy about the raise. If the hand had been AsAc2s8c it would have been a > lot more attractive. > > Why did you fold your set of aces? Where you worried about a low straight? | ||
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| Re: Bad call on the flop (O8)?, Big_Slick, 2. Jul 2003 19:57 | ||
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| No... was just curious. I figured since you went that far, why not make one more bet for a chance to win the pot. | ||
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| Re: Bad call on the flop (O8)?, 4 POKER, 2. Jul 2003 18:42 | ||
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| I think your raise preflop was correct regardless that you weren't suited. You still held 3 powerful cards and you can raise it in that spot and any other spot. A-A-2 is a strong hand. Now, because you did raise it preflop and you did get substantial action after you had raised, I think that your call on the flop was correct also. You were getting the right price to play for the nut low draw and even though you may have only been drawing to half the pot, your call was still correct. With all those callers in, even if you got quartered, you'd still probably wind up making a profit and at the very least, you'd be getting even on the hand. Keep in mind that you did hold two Aces in your hand which does make it a little bit harder now for too many others to be holding the Ace and the Deuce. The only card on the turn that would cripple your holding would be the Deuce and yes, even the Ace is not a card I'd want to be seeing, not at that point because the heat that you may take (the low will be made with this Ace), will be too much for you to continue safely throughout the hand. But I definitely would have called a bet on the flop, no question. The pot odds were there to do so. You also had the perfect position to know exactly how much the hand was going to cost you on the turn as well. Sometimes in Omaha 8, even after holding a premium starting hand and pretty much only flopping the nut low draw with the nut hidden pair, it is still correct to call a bet and often you should be making the bet yourself if you're given a different position. You can't always scoop the pot, but with enough action on the hand or even in just a heads up situation....you should be continuing with the hand that you held. Now, if the turn card does not bring you a low and there is too much heavy betting, then you can decide whether it would be profitable enough for you to continue or to just consider folding. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Bad call on the flop (O8)?, Tim C, 2. Jul 2003 19:48 | ||
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| I don't play a lot of omaha8, but that hand has trap written all over it. I wouldn't raise with it preflop unless it was a tournament. The 8 is a useless card, but its only my opinion. | ||
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| Re: Bad call on the flop (O8)?, 4 POKER, 2. Jul 2003 20:18 | ||
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| on 2. Jul 2003 19:48 Tim C wrote: > I don't play a lot of omaha8, but that hand has trap written all over it. I wouldn't > raise with it preflop unless it was a tournament. The 8 is a useless card, but its > only my opinion. Even though the 8 is a pretty useless card, the A-A-2 is still very strong and if you're on the button, all the more reason to throw in one raise with it. Keep in mind that the hand was not raised to him at all preflop or on the flop so by making just one small bet/call on the flop after the pot had been raised preflop....with that many players involved, the hand should have been called for one small bet on the flop as well. I don't see the trap on the flop at all with that hand. It's one small bet to him with noone behind him to act, he is still drawing to the nut low and IMHO, it would be correct $$ wise to make the call here. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Bad call on the flop (O8)?, Paul Stine, 2. Jul 2003 21:04 | ||
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| on 2. Jul 2003 18:18 Snorbolus wrote: > In a loose omaha 8 game I raised 4 limpers, with AsAc2d8h, on the button. Big > blind called, as did all of the limpers. > > The flop came: 5sQc7s > > Check, check, bet, call, call. I called, big blind called, other checker > folded. > > I am now pretty sure that calling here was a big mistake because (1) I am > drawing to low only. (2) I have no chance of scooping, because my only chance of > a high (one of the two remaining aces, followed by a paired board on the river - > v.slim) would simultaneously make a low possible and counterfeit my draw to > one. > > I am posting to ask if you all agree with my analysis. Also, how about the > pre-flop raise? No suits, that 8 isn't really doing anything for the hand. > > Incidentally, the turn came Ad, I called. The river was 4h, I folded to a bet > and a call. It turned out that my set of aces would have been good. I still > think that folding on the flop would have been the best play. > > Snorbolus I wouldn't have raised pre-flop. Although you have a pair of aces and a nice deuce, that 8 is a real stinker. This is a classic three-legged hand. Suit up that eight and you have a lot more strength. There are already 4 limpers and making the pot bigger will only give odds to a lot of draws that are better than yours. On the flop you have the nut low draw (although you are probably duplicated somewhere with that many players) and an overpair. An often overlooked aspect here is also that As. Holding that card means that no one has the nut flush draw. (Although at low limit no one would probably fold the Ks or Qs flush draws if you bluffed the flush with the As. In a live game, the judicious exposure of the As might help.) I think on the flop is where I would have used my raise. It might clear out the people behind you. If the original bettor re-raises you can fold on the turn if you don't improve. If an A comes on the turn I would at least call to see the river since I have (give or take) 10 outs to a full house or better. The raise on the flop might also let you see the river for free. When considering entering a pot in O/8 it is useful to think about or visualize the types of flops you would like to see. With AA28 rainbow, what kind of flop do you want? Quads or a full house, of course. An ace with another high card and one low card, say a 3, and rainbow ? An ace with two cards (unpaired) over 8 presents a few straight draw threats. Bill Boston ranks this hand, by his simulation using Wilson Turbo Omaha/8 software of a tight, 9-handed $10-$20 game, as profitable to the tune of $20. In his simulation of 10000 hands it wins high 6.7% of the time, wins low 8.2% of the time and scooping 20.3% of the time. In a loose game I would predict that it's profitability suffers quite a bit. Paul Stine College Station, TX | ||
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| Re: Bad call on the flop (O8)?, Schuster, 2. Jul 2003 21:37 | ||
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| Can I ask where you got that Bill Boston information? I'm just getting into O8 and haven't come across his stuff yet. Thanks! Lee | ||
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| Re: Bad call on the flop (O8)?, Paul Stine, 2. Jul 2003 21:54 | ||
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| on 2. Jul 2003 21:37 Schuster wrote: > Can I ask where you got that Bill Boston information? I'm just getting into O8 and > haven't come across his stuff yet. Thanks! > > Lee "Omaha High-Low: Play to Win With the Odds" by Bill Boston, Poker Plus Publications. $19.95 ISBN: 1884466-47-8 I buy all my poker books from www.conjelco.com. This is their description: Omaha High-Low: Play to Win with the Odds, Bill Boston. This book gives you the vital information you need to make critical pre-flop decisions in Omaha high-low. The author ran 10,000 + computer simulations on each of 5,211 Omaha high-low hands and presents the results of his research in an easy-to-read format. 111 pages of statistical charts with 52 pages of commentary. Includes data on the 49 best hands, the 49 worst hands, 30 ace-less hands that are profitable, and trap hands to avoid. 163p (spiral). #P85, $19.95, Internet Price: $17.95. Paul Stine College Station, TX | ||
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| Re: Bad call on the flop (O8)?, stdioh, 3. Jul 2003 12:42 | ||
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| I think that calling the flop there is obligatory. You have a veritable tonne of outs to the nut low and there are 3 players with money in on the flop. That means that even if everybody else folds off to the bettor, you're getting odds to survive being quartered if you make your half draw. Plus your overpair does have some marginal value if the board trips up (unlikely) or if you spike an ace *and* pair the board (also unlikely). Where the real value comes from is that you are harder to counterfeit. A 2 coming blows away your low, but an ace, while blowing your low, gives you a shot at the high. Now if you were heads up this would be an obligatory fold IMHO, but since you've got enough runners it is ok to draw here. Now when you spike your ace, you are obviously married to seeing a river. When you don't hit the river and all you have is top set you look to be in deep trouble and since there is a low you don't get, even if your aces are good they only take half. Thus I don't think it is totally unreasonable to fold your aces on the river as you did, but I would also consider that since there was a low draw on the flop and a caller dragged along it is very possible that you have the original bettor with a worse set and the caller with a low. There's a lot of money in the pot so either way I would call it either a tough call or a tough fold. Myself, I'd probably let go of the hand unless the game was very loose. | ||
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| Re: Bad call on the flop (O8)?, Wren, 3. Jul 2003 13:50 | ||
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| If you're heads up, you definitely don't fold this. Your AA could very well be good for high, and your nut low draw gives you an excellent chance to scoop. I think this type of situation is like holding a medium pair preflop in hold'em. You'd either like to be heads up, or have a bunch of callers. | ||
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