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Server Time: 10/15/2008 4:05:42 PM PACIFIC |
 NL Tourney Hand, mroban, 2. Jul 2003 15:07 | ||
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| I played my first NL tournament last night at Ultimate Bet. It was a Player Point Freeroll and the top 2 players (out of 400) got a $100 entry into the Aruba Satellite. I figured it would be good experience for me. I have made the final table of several online limit holdem tournaments at Poker Room, but never played in a NL tournament (not even a sit and go). So here my question: I was down to 1200 chips and 68 players out of 400. I was ranked 63rd. The blinds were up to (I think) 100-200 and were about to go to the next level. So I wasn't desperate, but figured I needed to make some moves soon. The leaders had around 18000 chips so I was obviously way behind. UTG limped and 2nd position (a guy that had a big stack and was stealing a lot) made a minimum raise. I had Jc10c and decided to make a move. I moved all in. UTG folded but to my chagrin limper called. He had A6 unsuited. The board blanked all around and he won with ace high. I think I made a terrible decision. But, my logic was: a) I had only 3 or 4 rounds left before I got blinded off with the blinds about to increase; b) I needed to make a move soon. Clearly I could have waited for at least an Ax hand to gamble with. I just don't think JTsuited plays well heads up against Ax or Kx. Thoughts? This move is really eating me up because in retrospect it seems so stupid. I was not getting ANY cards at all and felt until that time I had survived nicely with relatively little (a few blind steals and another player moved all in against one of my raises, I called and beat him). Otherwise, cards were running really cold. I didn't get one big pair in two hours, and had to subsist playing AQ 2x, a few KQ hands (that I made small raises with and had to fold when reraised all in) and 1 pair of 99. Otherwise, garbage. So the JTs was looking great to me when it hit. It was my most playable hand in an hour. Answering my own question, I obviously should have waited. I could have hung on a bit more and the players were starting to drop like flies. I could have hung on another round without being too desperate. My other problem I had for about an hour the player to my left had picked up alot of chips and started to bully. So anytime I made a raise, he came back over the top all in. He did this three times in a row and I had to fold playable hands. I figured after 3x I would just wait until a KK or AA or even AK and go all in against him and try to double through, but alas, this occasion never arose. He got moved to another table and that strategy went out the door. Sorry for the long post, just lookin for someone to verify that my allin move with JQ was idiotic. Big Slick, here is your chance to get even. | ||
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| Re: NL Tourney Hand, Risky Business, 2. Jul 2003 15:30 | ||
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| The mistake you made, in my humble opinion, is not realizing that big stacks will always call down smaller stacks. Knowing this, I would have waited for any pair to do that. I say any pair because you sound desperate, though you say you're not. You also made it sound like you didn't have the right to make a play either. Just because he moves all-in on you, doesn't mean you shouldn't be calling him. That's what no limit is all about. You're preaching to the choir about not getting any cards to play, it happens to all of us, but you admit you had 3 or 4 rounds to go. I think that's plenty of time (30 hands!!). J-T suited......if you have to.......call it around, see a flop, hit a pair, then make a move if you're so inclined, but expect an Ace or King to call an all-in from a shortstack 99% of the time. Happy hunting. on 2. Jul 2003 15:07 mroban wrote: > I played my first NL tournament last night at Ultimate Bet. It was a Player > Point Freeroll and the top 2 players (out of 400) got a $100 entry into the > Aruba Satellite. > > I figured it would be good experience for me. I have made the final table of > several online limit holdem tournaments at Poker Room, but never played in a NL > tournament (not even a sit and go). > > So here my question: > > I was down to 1200 chips and 68 players out of 400. I was ranked 63rd. The > blinds were up to (I think) 100-200 and were about to go to the next level. So > I wasn't desperate, but figured I needed to make some moves soon. The leaders > had around 18000 chips so I was obviously way behind. > > UTG limped and 2nd position (a guy that had a big stack and was stealing a lot) > made a minimum raise. I had Jc10c and decided to make a move. I moved all in. > UTG folded but to my chagrin limper called. > > He had A6 unsuited. The board blanked all around and he won with ace high. > > I think I made a terrible decision. But, my logic was: a) I had only 3 or 4 > rounds left before I got blinded off with the blinds about to increase; b) I > needed to make a move soon. > > Clearly I could have waited for at least an Ax hand to gamble with. I just > don't think JTsuited plays well heads up against Ax or Kx. Thoughts? This move > is really eating me up because in retrospect it seems so stupid. > > I was not getting ANY cards at all and felt until that time I had survived > nicely with relatively little (a few blind steals and another player moved all > in against one of my raises, I called and beat him). Otherwise, cards were > running really cold. I didn't get one big pair in two hours, and had to subsist > playing AQ 2x, a few KQ hands (that I made small raises with and had to fold > when reraised all in) and 1 pair of 99. Otherwise, garbage. > > So the JTs was looking great to me when it hit. It was my most playable hand > in an hour. > > Answering my own question, I obviously should have waited. I could have hung > on a bit more and the players were starting to drop like flies. I could have > hung on another round without being too desperate. > > My other problem I had for about an hour the player to my left had picked up > alot of chips and started to bully. So anytime I made a raise, he came back > over the top all in. He did this three times in a row and I had to fold > playable hands. I figured after 3x I would just wait until a KK or AA or even > AK and go all in against him and try to double through, but alas, this occasion > never arose. He got moved to another table and that strategy went out the > door. > > Sorry for the long post, just lookin for someone to verify that my allin move > with JQ was idiotic. > > Big Slick, here is your chance to get even. | ||
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| Re: NL Tourney Hand, NiceFella, 2. Jul 2003 18:30 | ||
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| Yes, you would have been much better off waiting for Ax. You had a couple of laps of the button to go. You were likely to get dealt a pocket pair or a big ace before you ran out of money. UTG limps -- he can probably beat a jack. 2nd position raises -- he can probably beat UTG, who we know can already beat your hand. This player isn't bullying with his minimum raise, he probably actually has a little something. Since this player has a big stack, he isn't likely to fold when he has a hand good enough to raise the UTG. So two players who can probably beat your hand are already in the pot -- you can see the foolhardiness in your all-in raise. Don't think of JTs as a possible flush or straight. That's an immense longshot. That's the sort of thing where you want to pay a little tiny bit of money up front, and then go all in after you hit. That's the opposite of what you've done. When you go all in with JTs before the flop, what you really have is jack high, and realistically all you can hope for is a pair of jacks. No one is going to call you without a pair, face cards, or an ace, so you're sealing your doom by moving all in like this. If you get called, you are a big underdog. Sure, you might try flat-calling with JTs and see what the flop brings, but going all in is just as foolhardy as you realized. My .02, NiceFella | ||
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| Re: NL Tourney Hand, mroban, 2. Jul 2003 19:09 | ||
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| Yep, you guys are confirming what I thought. A moronic rookie play. Too bad because I played pretty well until that point. I will be better off having learned from it though. thanks again guys. | ||
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| Re: NL Tourney Hand, shorn, 3. Jul 2003 04:32 | ||
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| Risky has it on the nose. A huge stack (someone who has lost the fear of busting out) will always call with an Ax hand in that situation and a very small stack (who needs to be aggressive) will also call. This is a play to make against average stacks who are less likely to play and are conserving chips. I would have mucked after the raise. | ||
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| Re: NL Tourney Hand, mroban, 3. Jul 2003 06:00 | ||
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| seems liking mucking was the unanimous decision. I concur. Still hating myself for making that play. | ||
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| Re: NL Tourney Hand, shorn, 3. Jul 2003 06:09 | ||
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| No hating. Just learning and not repeating. NO ONE makes all the right decisions, especially with a short stack. Don't beat yourself up too much... | ||
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| Re: NL Tourney Hand, 4 POKER, 3. Jul 2003 06:12 | ||
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| You are truly the most diplomatic one of the bunch, nice response shorn. Hey TK, go and add that to shorns bio, "where are you from, personalities"? (UPF thread). 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: NL Tourney Hand, shorn, 3. Jul 2003 07:01 | ||
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| TK doesn't like me...I don't have a bio yet. :( | ||
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| Re: NL Tourney Hand, Tim C, 2. Jul 2003 17:38 | ||
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| mroban I think after utg limped and one player raised I would have mucked preflop. If no one limps in and you are close to the button, maybe go all in, but I think it's better to wait for a better hand. But I play fairly tight, and probably should loosen up. In a ring game I play fairly loose and think I should tighten up. Good luck | ||
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| Re: NL Tourney Hand, stdioh, 4. Jul 2003 09:02 | ||
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| Suited connectors start to become really worthless at this point in an NL tourney, except as stealing hands. When the guy raised and you decided to isolate him, that was a fine play, but only with a very strong hand. I would only do this with at a bare minimum AQ or 99. As you saw, you were a moderate dog to any hand with a queen, king, or ace. So you should have thrown that away there and picked a better spot. Yes, you need to chip up, but you're not desperate enough yet to be pushing with TJ. | ||
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