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Server Time: 8/21/2008 9:43:56 PM PACIFIC |
 Omaha8 Pot Limit Hands, mroban, 1. Jul 2003 12:45 | ||
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| Just played 2 incredible Omaha 8 hands today and have a few questions for the experts: 5 handed game, pot limit, 2 really loose players, one tight/weak. We play a variety of games, with $1 antes (no blinds). 1st Hand: I get dealt Ah-2d-8h-Qs UTG. I check, hoping for action from the loose players. tight/weak checks, $2 raise, a call, and I decide to call. Flop comes 8-4-4 rainbow with one heart. I make a pot sized raise, tight/weak folds, and I get 2 callers (no big surprise here). Turn brings Kc. I make another pot sized raise and get another 2 callers! River is a 10s. No flush is possible. I check, 1st caller checks, and 2nd caller raises $5. I fold. Did I make a mistake raising the pot on 4th street? I didn't think they both would fold, but thought one would. I had 8 outs for a mediocre full house and the nut low if such a card would grace me on 5th street? I am wondering if I am better off just checking and folding without a made low on board with an ordinary (but winnable) high hand? Perhaps a smaller raise? When I raise (especially in this game) I usually make a pot sized raise and it has been extremely profitable. These are guys who really don't know how to play pot limit and tend to just call timidly unless they have the absolute nuts. Thoughts? | ||
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| Re: Omaha8 Pot Limit Hands, TKarrde, 1. Jul 2003 13:05 | ||
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| > Did I make a mistake raising the pot on 4th street? I didn't think they both > would fold, but thought one would. I had 8 outs for a mediocre full house and > the nut low if such a card would grace me on 5th street? Did I miss something here? What are the 8 outs for the full house? You don't have a set or two pair with the cards in your hand. You can only play 3 on the board. As far as the question for betting, I'll leave that to the experts. But personally I wouldn't bet the pot on low draw. TKarrde "You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never to get involved in a land war in Asia. And only slightly less well known is this: never go in against a Sicilian (Mozman) when death is on the line!" | ||
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| Re: Omaha8 Pot Limit Hands, mroban, 1. Jul 2003 13:11 | ||
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| you are correct, not to the full house, but to improve enough to win. I think I only had 4 outs though. I might add, that I felt that my 2 pair had a chance to hold up, so I felt I had perhaps a 10% chance of winning the high hand without improving and | ||
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| Re: Omaha8 Pot Limit Hands, Big_Slick, 1. Jul 2003 13:28 | ||
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| Well, 4-Poker is the resident Omaha expert but I probably would have folded this hand after the flop. Although you have a chance to split the pot with the low hand, there are too many bad things that can happen with 2 cards yet to come. First off, you aren't guaranteed to flop another low card. Secondly, even if a low card comes off, you could always get counterfieted. That will obviously jeapordize your low hand. Moreover, you could be battling for a pot that could end up getting quartered. Thirdly, whenever there is a pair on board, be thinking full-house. Although you did have an 8 for 2 pair, anyone with a four has got the lead on you. Moreover, at the low limit games, poor players will play any hand that contains a pair. So if someone has a pair of 8's, 10's or K's, they now have a full boat. I think I'd be saving bets for a better looking opportunity. Your cards just didn't seem to fit good enough to be investing money. Also, being in EP was a big disadvantage in this hand. What are your thoughts, 4-P? | ||
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| Re: Omaha8 Pot Limit Hands, 4 POKER, 1. Jul 2003 17:06 | ||
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| on 1. Jul 2003 13:28 Big_Slick wrote: > Well, 4-Poker is the resident Omaha expert but I probably would have folded this hand > after the flop. Although you have a chance to split the pot with the low hand, there > are too many bad things that can happen with 2 cards yet to come. > > First off, you aren't guaranteed to flop another low card. > > Secondly, even if a low card comes off, you could always get counterfieted. That > will obviously jeapordize your low hand. Moreover, you could be battling for a pot > that could end up getting quartered. > > Thirdly, whenever there is a pair on board, be thinking full-house. Although you did > have an 8 for 2 pair, anyone with a four has got the lead on you. Moreover, at the > low limit games, poor players will play any hand that contains a pair. So if someone > has a pair of 8's, 10's or K's, they now have a full boat. > > I think I'd be saving bets for a better looking opportunity. Your cards just didn't > seem to fit good enough to be investing money. Also, being in EP was a big > disadvantage in this hand. > > What are your thoughts, 4-P? There is no question.... I would have not been raising the flop here and I wouldn't even want to be the one who would start off the betting if it was my turn to act. You see, if you're in the position to make the first bet and you do such.. this is what could happen. You either get called by an opponent/s or you get raised. If you just get called, you will still have a shot at hitting your low on the turn card. However, in a pot limit game of Omaha, the risks are much greater that you will be taking when you chose to make a bet, call a bet, or raise a substantial amount of money because before you know it, your $10 raise(for example) on a hand that pretty much just consists on hitting a low on the turn, can come back at you at such a high price that you wouldn't even be able to call. And... if you do call a bet or raise with your holding here, it could cost you so much money that unless you do hit your low hand on the turn, you will have made a big costly error, and even if you DO hit your low on the turn, by making it so expensive by raising the flop, if you do get quartered or even worse (like getting 1/8th or even 1/16th of the pot), it won't even matter if you make your low because you will still lose quite a bit of money. When you are on pretty much just on a low draw, allow others to enter the pot so at least if you are up against another low hand, you may not get hurt because if there are at least 4 in the hand you'll break out even and if there are more than 4 opponents you will even make money. You should really think carefully as to WHY you are making/calling bets before doing so- you always want to be getting the best of it at all times and you should be thinking about what exactly could happen if you do make a bet or a raise. You want to be a step or two ahead at all times. Now...the only card on the turn that would give you a strong enough HIGH hand would be the third eight. And you still must keep in mind that you must hit perfect on the turn- you can't risk your chips on the flop in hoping to hit your low on the turn because you have no protection with your Ace-Deuce whatsoever. If you held a 3 to go along with your A-2, at least you will be drawing to the "unbreakable nut low draw", but even that holding is still questionable because you still have the river card to contend with. If you flopped really strong I would say, "make the bet or call the bet", but with just holding one pair and a low draw I would want to see the turn card as cheaply as I possibly could. Regardless how well or poorly your opponents are at the moment, YOU do not want to make costly mistakes for yourself. This game has way too many combinational hands out there that could have leave your own holding in a very vulnerable situation. If this was limit it would be a different story, but even if I held that hand in limit Omaha, even though you are currently possesing the nut low draw and top pair, you really don't want the flop to be costing yourself too many bets here. Someone could very likely be holding the third four (for trips) and even if someone holds an overpair in their hand, they would at this point still have you dominated. You MUST hit a perfect low card on the turn to even consider continuing with the betting and or calling. Holding top pair on the flop is not a strong enough holding in Omaha and it is a deadly and crippling holding even more in pot limit. My suggestions here, either get in cheaply on the flop or make the decision to fold. By raising the flop in this situation leaves you in a very difficult spot and trust me... more times than not, you will be committing chips to a pot that could wind up leaving you broke. I've played pot limit Omaha with $5 and $5 blinds and although that doesn't sound very expensive, I played in a game where one man lost over $3,000 in ONE HAND. The key here is to get in cheaply, trap, bet or raise with a VERY strong hand that is ALREADY made on the flop or make it as cheap as possibe for yourself to continue and than take the right/correct course of action on the turn and river cards. The best pot limit Omaha players pounce the pot on the turn card not the preflop bet and not even the flop bet. These two rounds of betting are used alot for trapping another opponent who may be holding a much inferior holding compared to the one they are holding at that given time. Just be a little bit more conservative (if you will), on these betting rounds and wait until you either flop really really strong or wait until the turn card appears. You'll be allowing yourself to see how strong your hand really is by waiting until there are 4 cards on the flop instead of just 3, and believe me, that one extra card is crucial in pot limit Omaha. 4 POKER > > | ||
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| Re: Omaha8 Pot Limit Hands, mroban, 2. Jul 2003 05:04 | ||
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| Wow, this is absolutely fantastic. I am printing this out and sticking at the back of Phil Hellmuth's book. Just incredible. I guess for me, the hardest part is playing against guys that call so loosely. I have to heed your advice and just wait for the better hands. | ||
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| Re: Omaha8 Pot Limit Hands, 4 POKER, 2. Jul 2003 08:40 | ||
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| LOL....well alrighty then, you do that ! (AHH, me and Phil H.....my favorite person)! Seriously mroban... There are several different styles that work for Omaha (pot limit), but I think that when you're fairly new to the game you might be better off just to limp in with your hands opposed to raising too much. I'm not sure if you are fully aware of the rankings of the starting hands and which ones are playable only under the right circumstances, but just in case you aren't.....get acquainted with them and fast! One more thing....I think that you should be getting your Omaha practice and experience in playing limit Omaha first, (get to understand the game and the starting hands and everything else), and THEN you should be taking the step to playing pot limit. At least this way you'll only be having to learn how to bet/call/raise/etc. the pot opposed to having to know how to fully play the game as well...know what I mean? Anyway, good luck.....always. 4P- | ||
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