|
||
|
||
|
Server Time: 8/21/2008 9:35:20 PM PACIFIC |
 Time to loosen up., mongi, 30. Jun 2003 22:13 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| I am done playing tight aggressive poker. It is good for the beginning player and helps him avoid difficult situations. I believe that my game has evolved now to where I can play more hands and put myself into more winning situations. I am sick of sitting on the sidelines and watching the hand I have mucked preflop turn into a winner. I am sick of hearing people say stay away from the middle suited connectors, pocket pairs and Ace little suited cars they will only get you in trouble". This is only true if you don't know what to do with them after the flop. The guys that I see day in and day out cashing in multiple racks have one thing in common: they are loose aggressive players. This doesn't mean they play every card they get, but they do play many more hands than the typical "pro" would suggest. These guys are seen as lucky, but the truth is they put themselves into more situations where they can get lucky and they know what to do with it when they get it. Meanwhile I will sit down at a table and see mr. tight aggressive with a rack of chips in front of him....8 hours later, the stack hasn't moved. Does anybody else feel this way? suited connectors rock!!! | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Time to loosen up., Roy Cooke, 1. Jul 2003 04:27 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Hi Mongi You are right...Great players can play more hands because they "outplay" their opponents in the hands they play....That said, most players tend to think they can outplay their opponents more than they truly can...If you are going to loosen up...Make sure you are ready to dance! Roy Cooke on 30. Jun 2003 22:13 mongi wrote: > I am done playing tight aggressive poker. It is good for the beginning player > and helps him avoid difficult situations. I believe that my game has evolved now > to where I can play more hands and put myself into more winning situations. I am > sick of sitting on the sidelines and watching the hand I have mucked preflop > turn into a winner. I am sick of hearing people say stay away from the middle > suited connectors, pocket pairs and Ace little suited cars they will only get > you in trouble". This is only true if you don't know what to do with them after > the flop. > > The guys that I see day in and day out cashing in multiple racks have one thing > in common: they are loose aggressive players. This doesn't mean they play every > card they get, but they do play many more hands than the typical "pro" would > suggest. > > These guys are seen as lucky, but the truth is they put themselves into more > situations where they can get lucky and they know what to do with it when they > get it. Meanwhile I will sit down at a table and see mr. tight aggressive with a > rack of chips in front of him....8 hours later, the stack hasn't moved. > > Does anybody else feel this way? > > suited connectors rock!!! > | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Time to loosen up., shorn, 1. Jul 2003 05:11 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Before you take that plunge, focus on the situations in which you see the loose aggressive player playing what the tight player would consider "marginal hands". That will show you that the majority of the time, they are playing them (and betting them) in position where the situation is more warranted. Don't be fooled into playing 98s from EP UNLESS THE GAME IS PERFECT. Play that hand from 6th position on when there are a few callers. That is where the pro player realizes that the hand has gone from a loser to a +EV play. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Time to loosen up., Snorbolus, 1. Jul 2003 05:59 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| The important thing about multiple racks, is that you want to cash in more than you buy. Any style of play that allows you to do that is pretty much top banana. Snorbolus > The guys that I see day in and day out cashing in multiple racks have one thing > in common: they are loose aggressive players........ | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Time to loosen up., BAMAFROG, 1. Jul 2003 07:51 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Greed/boredom is the downfall of most gamblers. Just remember if you loosen up, your game my be boring, but your stack won't take the bigger swings of a looser player. If those cards aren't hitting you EV just went to H### in a handbasket. Good luck | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Time to loosen up., Risky Business, 1. Jul 2003 08:14 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| So are you going to move up in limits AND play loose aggressive? Or are you going to stick with the same limits, but change style? Why not play the same winning method.......for more money? on 30. Jun 2003 22:13 mongi wrote: > I am done playing tight aggressive poker. It is good for the beginning player > and helps him avoid difficult situations. I believe that my game has evolved now > to where I can play more hands and put myself into more winning situations. I am > sick of sitting on the sidelines and watching the hand I have mucked preflop > turn into a winner. I am sick of hearing people say stay away from the middle > suited connectors, pocket pairs and Ace little suited cars they will only get > you in trouble". This is only true if you don't know what to do with them after > the flop. > > The guys that I see day in and day out cashing in multiple racks have one thing > in common: they are loose aggressive players. This doesn't mean they play every > card they get, but they do play many more hands than the typical "pro" would > suggest. > > These guys are seen as lucky, but the truth is they put themselves into more > situations where they can get lucky and they know what to do with it when they > get it. Meanwhile I will sit down at a table and see mr. tight aggressive with a > rack of chips in front of him....8 hours later, the stack hasn't moved. > > Does anybody else feel this way? > > suited connectors rock!!! > | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Time to loosen up., Nathaniel Brous, 1. Jul 2003 09:00 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Well... your subject and post was right to the point. By coming to this conclusion you sail into rougher waters. Not necessarily a bad thing, mind you. Nothing I am about to say is earthshattering or new, just something to think on. As you open your game up, remember this acronym...P.O.T.A. Position, Odds, Texture, Analysis. These of course, are things to be thinking of at all times but become especially important as you play non "standard" cards. Position. Many people confuse playing marginal hands well (in position) with "taking a shot." They are not the same thing. Have a reason to enter a pot and a plan to back it up. Odds. Real or implied, always important, doubly so now that your hand will rarely play itself. Pay attention so you can maximize your win on those few occasions that you do hit. Texture. The type of game is going to dictate what cards you can safely and profitably play. Keep an eye out for swift changes as a single opponent (new or old) can create a new table dynamic. Analysis. Win or lose, go over the entire hand. Make sure you are not getting lucky. Remember that wins color our thinking and can start bad habits. Playing loose can lead to a great many things, good and bad. Certain factors will have to align themselves to make subpar hands profitable. A good motto would be "Play tight, about playing loose." - Nathaniel Brous | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Time to loosen up., 4 POKER, 1. Jul 2003 19:20 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| on 1. Jul 2003 09:00 Nathaniel Brous wrote: > Well... your subject and post was right to the point. By coming to this conclusion > you sail into rougher waters. Not necessarily a bad thing, mind you. Nothing I am > about to say is earthshattering or new, just something to think on. > > As you open your game up, remember this acronym...P.O.T.A. Position, Odds, Texture, > Analysis. These of course, are things to be thinking of at all times but become > especially important as you play non "standard" cards. > > Position. Many people confuse playing marginal hands well (in position) with > "taking a shot." They are not the same thing. Have a reason to enter a pot and a > plan to back it up. > > Odds. Real or implied, always important, doubly so now that your hand will rarely > play itself. Pay attention so you can maximize your win on those few occasions that > you do hit. > > Texture. The type of game is going to dictate what cards you can safely and > profitably play. Keep an eye out for swift changes as a single opponent (new or old) > can create a new table dynamic. > > Analysis. Win or lose, go over the entire hand. Make sure you are not getting > lucky. Remember that wins color our thinking and can start bad habits. > > Playing loose can lead to a great many things, good and bad. Certain factors will > have to align themselves to make subpar hands profitable. A good motto would be > "Play tight, about playing loose." - Nathaniel Brous Nathaniel, Great post. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Time to loosen up., noiseboy, 1. Jul 2003 10:29 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| If you are just adding suited connectors, suited A's, and small pairs to the mix, then you are still tight aggressive, maybe a bit less than some. If you are aware of when these hands are playable, there certainly can be profitable, just be careful you don't start playing them in bad situations and turning them into a leak. If you add these hands in addition to steals, bluffs and semi-bluffs to the mix, you will be much looser than the rocks, but you will still be much tighter than the maniacs and the calling stations, so in my book you would still be "tight aggressive." Anyway, more power to you, if you think you can play those hands profitably, go for it. They are some of my favorites, especially in a somewhat loose game. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Time to loosen up., hudson, 1. Jul 2003 13:13 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Hey M-- I couldn't agree more on one generalization and couldn't agree less with the specifics of it. In the past month I jumped up from the 3-6 to the 6-12 at my local to combat the same frustrations that you express; my by-the-book approach wasn't garnering much of a profit at the lower-limit table and any attempt I made at the "loose/aggressive" style of play invariably backfired. (Playing Ax OTB in an unraised pot is an irrelevant move against weak players who won't raise their big bullets or fold their small ones). Anyhow, I still employ the boring unimaginative style at the 6-12 but two things have happened: Actual Profit doubled (it doesn't require a Doctorate in Finite Mathematics to reach this conclusion) and--more importantly--opportunities to play loose/aggressive opened up. Remember that 90% of the plays in Sklansky are designed to work in a 10/20 game (minimum) and are really only profitable against opponents who are good enough to recognize what you MIGHT be trying to pull off but not good enough to realize when you are and when you're not. A great semi-bluff-re-raise only works against a player capable of folding (not a late-breaking-news-flash, I know, but still worth mentioning). Last night I sat down in what seemed like a pretty typical 6/12 and after folding for about an hour I finally realized that the chip-leader (he looked and sounded like Jabba The Hut) who appeared to be playing tourist cards (loose and yes, very aggressive) and pissing the hell out of everyone (except me) was in fact the best player I have ever seen in limit hold'em and he was actually fleecing the fu** out of the table--a total rattlesnake. He deserved a goddamn Oscar for his performance. So the first hand that I play finds me OTB with wheelchair pocket sixes and Jabba in EP (although the fat bastard seemed to be taking up three positions). He raises yet again scaring everyone out, so I limp, but BB three-bets us and I decide to cap it and hopefully get heads-up. It works and BB folds. The Flop: 9d 4d 5d. It's more frightening than the obese alien himself. Now at this point I would be lying if I claimed to have anything that even resembled a clue if Jabba had garbage or a monster (he was so good that it was virtually impossible to tell) but since I hadn't yet lost a single chip to him and was therefore not too furious to see and think clearly, I figured I'd at least take a ride on my pocket sixes. He bets, I re-raise intending to fold if he comes over the top. He calls. Fair enough--he's either slowplaying AKd or, well, he's not. I honestly had no clue. Fourth Street is a blank. He checks and now I am convinced that the only thing more monstrous than him are his cards, so I check and avoid the probable re-raise. The River: Kd. Huh? In the whopping second or two that I have to think, well, I couldn't, so I just decided to STARE HIM DOWN; something I have never done. It's such an absurd to do at a low-limit table. After all, Drama is reserved for the Big Boys in Big Games, right? Well, unable to process a single thought, I then notice that he doesn't peek at his cards for that fifth diamond. He just simply bets. So I decide to call time and peek at MINE (I knew that my sixes were both black), pause for a second, and cock that Gosh-I'm-lucky-as-hell-that-my-ace-is-a-diamond-and-not-a-heart grin and re-raise him. I'm still shocked this morning that it actually worked. He laid-down QJd. After flipping over my bulls**t sixes and determining which hand was shaking less (my left) I stacked my chips, played a few more hands and left. He would have crushed me if I had stayed another hour. On the way home, I decided that even though The River was indeed shamrock-up-the-a** lucky, my little peeking trick would have never worked against anyone else at that table, letalone an even lower limit. So, to punctuate this Tolstoy-type post--I now think that opening up your game depends less on the skill you intend to use than the skill-level of the opponent that you're trying to use it on. And trust me, I am not being boastful here, but in the four infant months that I have been playing TH, last night delivered the most important lesson so far, and it's one that I'll store away while I continue to play boring and tight/aggressive poker because I'm lucky enough to realize that something like that will not happen again soon. I'm not good enough to run into someone so much better than me. "There's no confusion like the confusion of a simple mind." - F. Scott Fitzgerald. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Time to loosen up., shorn, 1. Jul 2003 13:26 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| He laid down QJd?? With the pot that size, that was a terrible play. Sure, you raised representing the Ace, but to throw away the pot for one bet there was retarded. I commend you for your play, but with that small piece of information, I don't think the guy was as good as you thought he was. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Time to loosen up., Risky Business, 1. Jul 2003 13:35 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Hudson - Let's not forget you had been sitting on the sidelines against Jabba the whole session!! That, more than anything, won you that pot.........not your Jedi mind tricks. If he is who you say he is, he's laughing right now at your 6's, hoping to run into you again someday. And yes, he will remember, and it will be painful when he throws you into that pit...and you won't have Luke Skywalker to save you. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Time to loosen up., hudson, 1. Jul 2003 14:38 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| S-- Possibly retarded, or perhaps brilliant...in the course of one hour he had shown the table that he was capable of pulling off a pure bluff from pre-flop to river in the same manner that he attacked with a monster...maybe he was also showing that he was capable of laying down (odds or not), praying that I indeed had Ad, thus revealing his stupidity (genius) to the table...remember he was trying to create the lucky moron image...either way my sixes didn't fit his the method of madness... RB-- Laughing at my sixes? Why the hell do you think that I left when I did? I confessed incessantly that I was already in way over my head and any "Jedi" trick I may have pulled off was a knee-jerk reaction, so I didn't claim it was Brunson-esque. He won't forget it? And what I will and voluntarily hop into bed with him again? The whole point of the post was that sheer fortune taught me that opening up has less to do cards than with making good reads... Anyhow, the vote of confidence from both of you is infinitely appreciated. You must be Dodger fans. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Time to loosen up., Risky Business, 1. Jul 2003 14:45 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Hilarious. So how packed is Tiburon on a nice day like today? Gonna grab the 5 and go kick some Dodger ass tonight? (Or do you have to take the 1?) I scold in a fatherly way. With a purpose, as your post sounded like something I would do, but wouldn't get away with. Come back with more tales like that. I love 'em. p.s. Obviously not from CA. on 1. Jul 2003 14:38 hudson wrote: > S-- > > Possibly retarded, or perhaps brilliant...in the course of one hour he had shown the table > that he was capable of pulling off a pure bluff from pre-flop to river in the same manner that > he attacked with a monster...maybe he was also showing that he was capable of laying down (odds > or not), praying that I indeed had Ad, thus revealing his stupidity (genius) to the > table...remember he was trying to create the lucky moron image...either way my sixes didn't fit > his the method of madness... > > RB-- > > Laughing at my sixes? Why the hell do you think that I left when I did? I confessed > incessantly that I was already in way over my head and any "Jedi" trick I may have pulled off > was a knee-jerk reaction, so I didn't claim it was Brunson-esque. He won't forget it? And what > I will and voluntarily hop into bed with him again? The whole point of the post was that sheer > fortune taught me that opening up has less to do cards than with making good reads... > > Anyhow, the vote of confidence from both of you is infinitely appreciated. You must be Dodger > fans. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Time to loosen up., hudson, 1. Jul 2003 15:10 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| it was just a touch of sarcasm to "loosen things up"...wow...all apologies...but as far as tiburon is concerned the only way one would ever convince me to visit a such a hiddeous place would be at gunpoint...and the dodgers, well, i'm sorry but i am not a typical fairweather bay area baseball fan and sadly i do, in fact, hate everything blue, except of course ol' vinny...fox does not deserve to have such a legend... | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Time to loosen up., shorn, 2. Jul 2003 05:09 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Hey, I wasn't saying that YOUR play was bad. In fact, that was the only chance that you had to win that pot, so well done to read him as the type of player who would lay down a flush to a raise in the river. My point was that the table (and potentially you) was giving this guy WAY too much respect if he was stupid enough to lay down QJd (second nut) with 10 or so bets in the pot. Didn't mean to offend you... | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Time to loosen up., mongi, 1. Jul 2003 15:20 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Thanks for the replies: great information. first of all, saying I am now a loose aggressive player is a misnomer. A better word would be a less tight aggressive player. The key to playing more hands effectively comes down to the dynamics of the table. For example, if I am at a table were there is alot of raising and reraising before the flop and only 2-3 players see the flop then I will not play my middle suited connectors from EP. However, if the table is less aggressive preflop with only the occassional raise and I know 5 or more people will be seeing the flop even if it is raised, then I will limp with a hand like 78suited. Even if I get raised I will be getting good odds when I get a good draw. It is important that these same player are loose after the flop as well. Position obviously is vital as well as playing against players with looser starting hand requirements than you. A hand like KToffsuite may become very playable against somebody who plays any two cards. Conversely, if a couple solid players limp in from early position the hand is probably going into the muck. I also belieive that when you are running well you should play more hands. Not because you are getting lucky but because of the psychological effect your winning is having at the rest of the table. You are now in position to make some semibluffs when your hands don't hit because you have shown down nothing but the nuts the whole night. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| POKER FORUM HOME | POKER FORUM | LINK TO US | ARCHIVE | ONLINE POKER | Copyright 2002, United Poker Forum |
|
Getting Started |
UPF Tournaments |
Poker News, Views, Rules |
Poker Strategy & Psychology |
Money and Bankroll Poker Bonuses & Promotions | World Series of Poker (WSOP) | Play Online Poker | Poker Odds & Statistics | Tournament Poker | Poker Books, Videos & Learning Tools Looking for a Poker Game | Poker Bad Beats | Not Quite Poker | Quizzes and Polls | Forum Suggestions & Bugs |
|
|
|
|
Interesting Links: Online Poker | Free Poker Games | United Poker Network |
|