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Server Time: 2/13/2012 9:02:07 PM PACIFIC |
 When the Flop fits (sort of), mkpoker, 29. Jun 2003 12:31 | ||
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| "If the flop doesn't fit, fold" is probably the best piece of advice I've ever read. But I've had trouble figuring out how to play when the flop doesn't really fit, but doesn't really NOT fit either. For example (from a B&M 3/6 game): I'm dealt Ac7c in middle position of a fairly typical game. I limp in; there's a total of four callers, no raises. Flop comes 4h 7d 8c. So I've drawn middle pair, there's a straight draw on the board (although a less scary draw than JT), and I have an extremely remote chance at the nut flush. Two checks to me, I bet, hoping to take the pot there and get one caller. 4th Street is 2h, possibly giving a flush draw. I check, opponent bets. Now I'm thinking, maybe he limped in with 22? Or more likely, he's trying to bluff this pot b/c I didn't bet on the turn. I think about re-raising, but call instead. The next card is Jd, check-check. Opponent turns over KQ and I take a very small pot. My question: Should I have mucked my middle pair after the flop? Or should I have bet more aggressively, since my opponent wasn't showing much interest either? And more generally, what do you do with flops like this--flops that don't really fit, but don't really NOT fit, either? | ||
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| Re: When the Flop fits (sort of), Big_Slick, 29. Jun 2003 13:33 | ||
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| This is a tough one, MK and as usual, depends a lot on the table and the opponents you are playing. With a flop of 4h 7d 8c, the first thing I'm thinking is a possible straight. A lot of people will play 9-10 in 3/6 HE and with 3 other callers, it is possible that someone is on a draw. Betting the flop probably isn't a bad idea just to see where everyone stands. However, after knocking out 3 of the 4 players and betting the flop, you need to bet the turn and give your opponent a chance to fold his hand. Simply checking the turn is telling your opponent, "Well, I don't really have much... at least not enough to invest $6." You are giving him a chance to take the lead. Now, after checking, you are in the passenger seat because your opponent just fired in a bet. Now, you are left wondering, does he have trips, 2 pair, a drawing hand, a pair of 8's or nothing at all? Did he only bet because I checked? For a half bet, a lot of players will bet the flop no matter what they are holding. For a full bet on the turn however, many will fold. If he is on a straight or flush draw, make it expensive for him to hit his hand. If you get raised on the turn, you can always fold and move on to the next hand. If he calls, you still have 7 probable outs if an Ace or seven hits the river. Let me reiterate however, that this is how I would have played this hand against one opponent. If there are two left to see the turn, I would play it differently. Hope this helps. | ||
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| Re: When the Flop fits (sort of), sburne, 30. Jun 2003 08:47 | ||
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| How would you play it with two? | ||
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| Re: When the Flop fits (sort of), Schuster, 30. Jun 2003 14:19 | ||
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| I'm not Big_Slick, but against 2, if I lead the flop and a blank hit on the turn, I would still lead out. Chances are more than good enough that your bet will cause them to fold. Your play has a positive EV in the long run, even if it doesn't work out majority of the time. If I'm against 3, it really depends on the players and position. I would be much more likely to bet in position rather than lead into a field of 3 or more for a big bet. Lee | ||
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| Re: When the Flop fits (sort of), Roy Cooke, 29. Jun 2003 18:10 | ||
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| I would generally bet the turn unless he was the sort of player that would always bet the turn and river with blanks. I don't want to give a free card in that spot....and it is likely that your hand is good...... Roy Cooke , on 29. Jun 2003 12:31 mkpoker wrote: > "If the flop doesn't fit, fold" is probably the best piece of advice I've ever > read. But I've had trouble figuring out how to play when the flop doesn't > really fit, but doesn't really NOT fit either. For example (from a B&M 3/6 > game): > > I'm dealt Ac7c in middle position of a fairly typical game. I limp in; there's > a total of four callers, no raises. Flop comes 4h 7d 8c. So I've drawn middle > pair, there's a straight draw on the board (although a less scary draw than JT), > and I have an extremely remote chance at the nut flush. Two checks to me, I > bet, hoping to take the pot there and get one caller. > > 4th Street is 2h, possibly giving a flush draw. I check, opponent bets. Now > I'm thinking, maybe he limped in with 22? Or more likely, he's trying to bluff > this pot b/c I didn't bet on the turn. I think about re-raising, but call > instead. > > The next card is Jd, check-check. Opponent turns over KQ and I take a very > small pot. > > My question: Should I have mucked my middle pair after the flop? Or should I > have bet more aggressively, since my opponent wasn't showing much interest > either? And more generally, what do you do with flops like this--flops that > don't really fit, but don't really NOT fit, either? | ||
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| Re: When the Flop fits (sort of), Swagman, 29. Jun 2003 18:20 | ||
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| Problem with A-middle is you just ripe for compounding errors as you post indicates. You were thinking way too hard to merit the possible outcome of this hand. After seeing the flop you looked fairly good to win the hand and your bet was a good one. Once you were head's up another bet would have removed his K,Q, but I don't think I would have made it, because I'd have no intention of betting the river card if my hand didn't improve. You had a good chance of winning a fairly small pot, but it doesn't merit putting more money into the pot. I think other then mucking the A,7 in the first place you played the hand post flop well. | ||
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| Re: When the Flop fits (sort of), mongi, 29. Jun 2003 19:23 | ||
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| I would have bet the flop and absolutely bet the turn, then check the river. It is likely you have the best hand, your opponent is simply reacting to your bet. Many times in this situation your opponent has exactly what he showed you; two big cards. Get him out now. any card 9 or higher coming on the river could kill your hand. In this situation if a King or Queen hit you were done. In regards to the backdoor flush draw, it is important to take that into account in certain situations. For example, yesterday I hit the nut straight on the turn and raised the better to my right. The player to my left hesitated for a second, laughed and said "well I am stuck now" and called. I had put him on a pair and was surprised he called until I realized that a second spade had hit the turn. sure enough a spade hit the river, I checked, he bet, I called and he showed me the flush. I probably saved two bets by not betting into him. Typically I wouldn't be overly concerned that somebody hit a flush in this situation, however, it is a good idea to keep your eyes and ears open to look for clues that it might have. | ||
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| Re: When the Flop fits (sort of), PairTheBoard, 29. Jun 2003 19:18 | ||
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| If he had you beat on the flop he would almost certainly raise unless he had a huge hand and was slow playing it. That usually isn't the case. If it is you'll find out when you get raised on the turn. The real problem in this situation is if you get raised on the flop by an extra agressive opponent, or raised on the turn by someone who makes you out as weak tight. Against extremely aggresive opponents you have to grit your teeth and call all the way with second pair sometimes. | ||
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| Re: When the Flop fits (sort of), Piers Majestyk, 29. Jun 2003 19:27 | ||
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| Best thing to do with A7 in middle position is muck it. This keeps you out of troublesome situations such as you describe and in the long run will save you money. | ||
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| Re: When the Flop fits (sort of), Schuster, 29. Jun 2003 20:46 | ||
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| I would definately bet the turn here. If you were willing to call a bet, you should make the bet yourself. If he checked behind you and a king or queen hit the river, you'd be kicking yourself I'm sure. If he raises you on the turn, you have a clear fold. Either option leaves you putting a bet into the pot, but only one gives him a chance to fold. With a board like that, your hand is likely good. | ||
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| Re: When the Flop fits (sort of), MozMan, 29. Jun 2003 21:44 | ||
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| mk- I like play second pair once in a while in situations like this. You have to keep clear in your mind why you are playing it. The primary reason is to represent top pair and steal the pot; so it's best to play it when the field is small (6 at the most), and when the high card on the board is no bigger than a J or Q. The reason is, with fewer people in, and no BIG cards on the board, there's less of a chance that someone has that top pair. Occasionally, you get lucky and draw trips, a str8 draw or flush draw on the turn... the problem is, that keeps you interested when you probably don't have the odds to call a bet on the turn. Here's two good examples of when it worked well for me: 1- I'm playing Ah 6h on the button with 5 other limpers. Flop comes 2d 6c Th. It's checked around to me, I bet and buy the pot right there. Everything was good for that bet: I'm last to act; it was checked around to me; I had 2nd pair; the flop was trash (low cards, not str8 or flush draws) so I was relatively sure I wouldn't be check-raised. 2- I'm playing 95o in the BB, so I see the flop for free. The SB did not see the flop, so I am UTG when the flop comes. There are 5 of all together on the flop. The flop comes J52 rainbow. I bet out to test the table. Two fold, one raises and the last one folds. I figure the raiser for AJ (having played with him several times) and guessed he thought I was on a J with a lower kicker. In this case, I called the raise because I don't want these guys to think I can easily be pushed off of something; I intend to check-fold on the turn, assuming I get no help. The turn comes a 5, so I bet out again. Now he's suspicious, so he just calls. The river comes the case 5, and I bet out again. He calls thinking we are now going to chop with 5s full. This one is an extremem case, but it still has the right elements: small cards, few callers. The only thing that really wasn't right about this one was position, but I got lucky. I guess what I'm trying to say is this: it's ok to play hands like this on occasion, but not all the time and only when conditions are right. -Moz "You're a sad, sorry little man. You have my sympathy." | ||
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| Re: When the Flop fits (sort of), shorn, 30. Jun 2003 05:29 | ||
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| You MUST bet the turn here agains one opponent. As Slick points out, there are many players who will call the flop with over cards, but then fold the turn if they miss. Effectively you gave him another free shot on the turn to hit an overcard. Now luckily, he bet it for you so it didn't cost you anything. But, you should have never given him that chance. If he rases you on the turn, then muck your hand. If he calls the turn, then check the river and unless he hit something he will check it down too. Against one opponent, you do not want to play meekly. With a large field, it is a different story. | ||
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