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Server Time: 11/21/2008 5:51:30 PM PACIFIC |
 calling pre-flop raises, afro, 29. Jun 2003 03:52 | ||
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| Will somebody tell me what is wrong with calling pre-flop raises with suited cards such as 7 8, 6 8 etc. | ||
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| Re: calling pre-flop raises, Swagman, 29. Jun 2003 04:47 | ||
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| Looking at the hands that are traditionally raised pre-flop (A,A - A,K - K,K etc.) Then are'nt you looking a very serious disadvantage if you limp in with you 8, 6 suited. You're looking at the slim possibility of catching a flush, but even if a flush comes won't you likely be beaten by someone holding lets say a K,Q of the same suit your holding. And what if you 8 or 6 comes? Isn't there a greater likelihood that the person raising you might have done so with J,J. Even if you catch a 8,6 on the flop getting a 2 of kind. If the the board pairs itself then your 2 of kind is probably garbage. This is way it is advantageous to you to enter a pot with very strong hands, even more so if there is a raise pre-flop because its an indication that the player is holding a very strong hand. | ||
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| Re: calling pre-flop raises, PairTheBoard, 29. Jun 2003 05:19 | ||
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| I think there are exceptions to this. I've been playing in games that get so loose that raises by some of the players are given very little respect by anyone at the table and regularly get called by several players. In this situation and when you are in late position I think the raise can be called - at least some of the time. Similarly, sometimes in late position in a loose game with a couple of limpers in front of you I think you should sometimes put the raise in yourself with the suited fully connected mid size cards. It may buy you the button although it may narrow the field to just 2 or 3 players.If you do this once in a while - otherwise playing very tight - it provides you with the illusion of giving action. It also makes you less predictable, allowing you to represent more types of flops after raising. It can get very uncomfortable if you are always being put on AK or AQ and get vigorously attacked every time a flop comes that you miss. It's nice when you flop a draw, get checked to, take a free card, hit your straight or flush, and start being attacked like crazy because it looks like you missed your AK hand. It's nice to have them start to fear your checks a little in that situation. jmo | ||
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| Re: calling pre-flop raises, Swagman, 29. Jun 2003 05:39 | ||
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| having no issues with playing middle suited no-gappers in late position providing you are looking at alot of people calling the raiser. I will always call with a 5,6 suited with plenty of players willing to see the flop for example. However, I do not suggest this to a player that does'nt understand fully the implications of doing so, as his post would indicate. If he doesn't understand fully what starting cards merit a raise and why, he certainly isn't going to know how to play these multiway hands after the flop comes. | ||
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| Re: calling pre-flop raises, psuasskicker, 29. Jun 2003 05:26 | ||
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| I will occasionally cold call a pre-flop raise with middle suited connectors, but only if I'm sitting at the table for a long time and want to vary my play so I'm not looking like an absolute rock. However, fighting a raise with low cards simply because they're suited is not a profitable play. Suited cards are often very deceptive. When you win a hand like the one you describe, you'll often drag a half decent pot. But suited cards like that usually won't help you win the most for your money. If your flush is best, no one else has the flush, so people being scared of the flush will limit the action in the pot (less so with straights, but then, straights aren't as powerful a hand). And when you get lots of action in the pot, you're usually beaten by a bigger flush, or the possible boat. So basically you're talking about reverse implied odds in starting with a hand like that against a pre-flop raiser. This, not to mention the fact that a pre-flop raiser will typically (assuming they aren't a maniac, in which case it might be okay to call a pre-flop raise with cards like that) have a fairly solid hand which means that if your cards simply pair, you likely still are not best. It's okay to do rarely to vary your play if you're going to be playing with the same people for a while. But making this play on a regular basis will be significantly unprofitable over the long run. - C - | ||
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| Re: calling pre-flop raises, PairTheBoard, 29. Jun 2003 13:39 | ||
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| Good point about the value of the suits. imo, you are looking to flop something like a straight draw or a pair with a gut draw and some flush possiblity. The suitedness gives you the extra outs a lot of times to turn marginal draws into acceptable ones. If your opponent can lay down high cards that miss then you can strongly represent a lot of mid-low card flops with semibluffs. I'm afraid with the games I've been playing this doesn't work too well because a lot of players will play AK, AQ like Aces all the way even when they miss. But against less tough/maniac types, the play is good for defending your blind, and sometimes for defending your button. | ||
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| Re: calling pre-flop raises, hudson, 29. Jun 2003 12:27 | ||
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| Here's a brief case n' point to lend evidence to all of your very sound advice... I was perched on the button last night and was served up a re-raised pot (UTG raise; middle re-raise, late cold call) and I capped it with 78o. I rarely make this play, but when I do--and this probably swims against conventional wisdom--I almost prefer unsuited connectors because it works as a personal rip-cord, not allowing myself to get Pied Piper'ed into a flush draw against Big Slick. Anyhow, SB and BB fold, UTG and Midddle call and Late folds (Thank God). Now, both opponents might as well of had a copy of Sklansky on their laps because after three hours it was beyond obvious that they only played high pairs (or at least BS) in this situation The Flop is an absolutely perfect 458 rainbow. Both UTG and Middle check and I take the free card, which is J. Now UTG bets and Middle raises and I re-raise semi-bluff, which at the very least inflates the pot if one of my 11 outs hits, which it does (7). After I re-raise UTG and Middle again and pull in a nice pot, he bounces his Queens off the felt (btw - Middle indeed had bullets) and barks out "Lucky Fu**ing River", which it very well could have been, but not nearly as fortunate as sitting with two players that stay in love too long with high pocket pairs. So I have no issues playing middle connectors (suited or otherwise) late in a raised pre-flop if of course the situation is ideal. P.S. - If my wheelchair 78 was suited and a flush hits I guarantee that I get murdered by AKs. I just know it--everyone has their weak-willed pockets. | ||
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| Re: calling pre-flop raises, Schuster, 29. Jun 2003 20:56 | ||
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| I don't mean to sound harsh, but I really don't think this was a good situation to vary your play. When faced with a raise and a reraise, putting 4 bets into a pot with a 7-8o is practically throwing money away. Then reraising the turn with nothing but second pair is really asking for it. You made it 3 big bets when you had 9 outs in the deck. You're not a favorite to win, and it's pretty clear that at least one of them has a pair buried. | ||
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| Re: calling pre-flop raises, hudson, 30. Jun 2003 09:48 | ||
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| Hey S, Don't worry, that was far from harsh--harsh is dropping a five-run lead in Game 6 of The World Series. Anyhow, I did confess that my play was dubious at best and one that I rarely make; however, in this particular session I was betting with a big stack, had an Atilla-Table-Image going on (lil' ol' me!) and I was absolutely positive that my callers were sitting on high pocket pairs, so I would have certainly been handcuffed if anything colorful hit on the flop. I know that had less-than-favorable odds but it was worth a gamble in my eyes (it was at a limit lower than what I usually play; not an excuse for reckless play but I know that I am not the only one guilty of it) and it pissed off my opponents so much that I ultimately felted them when I played similarly with a legitimate re-raising hand. Trust me I am in no way trying to defend my play seeing as I am still in my embryonic poker stage, but I hope that I am not nearly as foolish as I often sound and if I actually am, then it's one helluva good thing that I do not play online against you guys! | ||
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| Re: calling pre-flop raises, Schuster, 30. Jun 2003 14:25 | ||
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| You'd be much better off raising with these types of hands when it's "cheaper" to raise. For example, if you're in the blind with a nice suited connector, and there's already a lot of callers, you can toss in another bet. You've switched up your play significantly, and you've caused people to stay in longer with their mediocre hands if you hit. If you hit nothing, you've only given up 1 extra small bet (as opposed to 4). I do this from time to time when the situation is right, and sometimes it feels like it's not worth doing because you hit something so rarely. The other day though, I was in the big blind with J-10 of spades, 6 had already called the blind, and I popped it up 1. The flop was finally a monster for me, K-Q-X with 2 spades. I led out, someone raised me, and I made it 3 bets, trapping 4 people for it. An ace hit on the river and I won a monster pot. Lee | ||
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| Re: calling pre-flop raises, Roy Cooke, 29. Jun 2003 18:35 | ||
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| Sometimes you need to hit the hand twice or more in order to make the best hand....That means you should be getting some good odds before you play it! Roy Cooke on 29. Jun 2003 03:52 afro wrote: > Will somebody tell me what is wrong with calling pre-flop raises with suited > cards such as 7 8, 6 8 etc. | ||
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| Re: calling pre-flop raises, shorn, 30. Jun 2003 05:08 | ||
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| I think Roy put it best...the majority of the time, you will need the board to hit you twice in order to win. So, you will need two pair or a srt8 or flush draw to continue. Combining all of these and given the fact that they come up probably 15% of the time total (7% flush, 6% str8, and 2% two pair), you would need roughly 7 to 1 to make the cold call pre-flop to make it marginally correct. Normally, in a raised pot, you aren't getting these odds. As others have pointed out, if you are on the button or maybe 1 to the right of the button and there are a lot of limpers, then a raise yourself can be the best play as it may buy you the turn card for free, giving you another shot to hit something big. But, by and large you want to see the flop as cheaply as possible with these hands because most of the time you will be throwing them away when the flop misses you. Look at it this way...if a solid player expects to earn 1 big bet per hour on average, why risk 1 hour of income on a hand that will only come in less than 10% of the time? | ||
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| Re: calling pre-flop raises, stdioh, 4. Jul 2003 09:32 | ||
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| Those small hands are only valuable if you make a straight or a flush. If there is a raise preflop, few people will be in the hand and you won't get paid off well on the rare occasions that you do make your monster hand. You also won't have pot odds to see the river if you are drawing on the turn. | ||
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