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Server Time: 11/21/2008 5:58:50 PM PACIFIC |
 calling down with second pair, mongi, 26. Jun 2003 15:44 | ||
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| When is it correct or not correct to call someone down who may or may be betting top pair when you have the second pair. 4-8 holdem Example: I raise a early limper from mid position with pocket tens, the button calls as well as the big blind and the early limper. The flop comes Kc 5d 6d. Its a loose aggressive game. The big blind bets ( he is the type who is generally solid but will bet draws , second pair etc. as equally as top pair. I was the only caller. He proceeded to bet the rest of the way. the last two cards were 9s Th. I called him down, he had a king and I lost. Obviously if this guy was a rock I would have folded on the flop. Perhaps I should have raised on the flop,that way I could win the hand right away if he did not have a king or if he reraised me at least I could get away from the hand easier. If there was a multiway pot and several callers on the flop, I would probably muck it on the turn. Somebody may just be on a flush draw but if several people are still in whom called my preflop raise, there is a good chance somebody has a King. If you are just heads up do you just pay the better off in situations like these, again assuming he may be betting anything? | ||
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| Re: calling down with second pair, Andrew Wells, 26. Jun 2003 17:06 | ||
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| It doesn't look like another ten fell on the river in your example, otherwise you wouldn't have lost to top pair. As for calling on the end with less than top pair, this is an area where you simply get better at with experience. Try to catagorize the players at the table. A loose/aggressive and tricky player you want to take your underpair to showdown often. A tight/passive player you would be better off folding to on the flop. When someone is playing tight/aggressive poker, that is when it becomes a good judgement situation. Since you said this opponent will bet second pair, or a draw aggressively, I would be more inclined to call with your tens. If this player came into the pot from early position rather than the blinds, I would make the decision earlier (on the flop). I might occasionally raise with the tens and follow through with a bet on the turn if this player is capable of making a laydown with top pair and a mediocre kicker. He must also be thinking about what I am playing as well. There aren't many players at 4-8 hold'em that will fold to a raise on the flop and a bet on the turn with such hands, so I am really just playing to charge a possible draw by handling it occasionally this way. I hope and expect to check the river and showdown without paying the last bet. If the player is in the blinds, and I really think he is pushing it, I may just call the whole way. Sometimes you can get a feel for the betting cadence, or the way someone handles the chips when making the bet. This might offer some clues as to whether he has a weak hand or a draw. Most of the time at low limit, you are not giving up much by just folding on the flop. You can't do this every time, but at least try to defend against players who are involved in many pots rather than those who have been very selective preflop. | ||
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| Re: calling down with second pair, shorn, 27. Jun 2003 05:13 | ||
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| I think this is a clear raise or fold situation on the flop. You showed stregth pre-flop and he called and then he bet out when the K hit. He is either bluffing or you are beaten. So, I prefer paying two small bets on the flop to find out if he has a K (which he most likely does as there aren't that many 4-8 player who will bluff out of the blind after someone has raised pre-flop). If he calls you, you are likely to get to the river without paying anything else and if you don't improve and he bets the river, then your reads come into play. If he folds something like A9 to your flop raise, then you have eliminated those times when an Ace would fall on 4th or 5th that would beat you. This is one of those few situations where I think that raising is the best play, folding is second, and calling is last (unless of course you know your opponent to be a habitual bluffer. If that's the case, then calling might be the best play, with raising 2nd and folding 3rd). | ||
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| Re: calling down with second pair, stdioh, 27. Jun 2003 08:26 | ||
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| Basically, the guy betting out is representing at least top pair. Calling him down is showing weakness and encouraging him to bet. What I will often do in this position is raise and fold to a three bet (if the player is decent - I won't fold to a 3-bet from a maniac). Generally the player will only call your raise if he does have top pair and will most often give you a free card on the turn. So instead of calling a small bet, calling a big bet, and calling another big bet, you raise to 2 small bets, get a free card, and maybe still call the river, though now he'll be discouraged from betting that too. I find that by raising the flop at the right time I can often lose only 1 BB when I am beat by top pair. Also, after raising the flop if he still comes out betting on the turn it becomes easy to release your hand because you know that he must have something decent. | ||
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| Re: calling down with second pair, shorn, 27. Jun 2003 08:40 | ||
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| Wow...we totally agree on this one. That hasn't happened for a while. | ||
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| Re: calling down with second pair, Snorbolus, 27. Jun 2003 10:02 | ||
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| Stdioh, Do you still raise a maniac in this position? If you are not going to fold to a 3-bet I don't see the advantage to riasing. on 27. Jun 2003 08:26 stdioh wrote: >....What I will often do in this position is > raise and fold to a three bet (if the player is decent - I won't fold to a 3-bet from > a maniac)..... | ||
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| Re: calling down with second pair, stdioh, 27. Jun 2003 11:49 | ||
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| Nope. In this case I don't raise a maniac. I might call him or fold here depending on how bad a maniac he is. After all, every maniac still gets top pair once in a while. If he's a true maniac I am liable to just call him all the way because he could be betting it with middle pair making my jacks good and if I hit a miracle card to improve I know that he'll pay me off really well too. | ||
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