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Server Time: 3/15/2010 9:09:15 AM PACIFIC |
 Triple Blinds in California, mroban, 26. Jun 2003 14:06 | ||
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| I played recently for the first time at the Hollywood Park Casino in LA (I am from NYC so I don't play in LA regularly). I was surprised to learn when I sat down that in addition to the SB and the BB the button pays a half blind. Has anyone seen this at other card rooms? Is this for the jackpot? I for one hated it. Does Commerce or Bicycle have this feature? | ||
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| Re: Triple Blinds in California, Paul Stine, 26. Jun 2003 14:18 | ||
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| on 26. Jun 2003 14:06 mroban wrote: > I played recently for the first time at the Hollywood Park Casino in LA (I am > from NYC so I don't play in LA regularly). I was surprised to learn when I sat > down that in addition to the SB and the BB the button pays a half blind. Has > anyone seen this at other card rooms? Is this for the jackpot? > > I for one hated it. Does Commerce or Bicycle have this feature? I think you are talking about the time charge, paid each time someone has the button. I thought that was dead, but maybe it plays as live, I can't recall. Instead of having a rake, which is illegal in CA, they have seat or time charges. Everyone pays time at the same time, either on the half hour or at the dealer change. Seat charges are paid on the button. Ahh, here it is, from the rec.gambling.poker FAQ: House Charges Last but not least is the matter of the house take. Somebody has to maintain the tastefully opulent furnishings and pay the electric bill. The money taken by the house is called the "drop", since it is dropped down a slot in the table at the end of each hand. The house will choose one of three ways to charge you to play. Time Charge A simple "time charge" is common in higher limit games and at some small games: seats are rented by the half hour, at rates ranging from $4 to $10 or so, depending on the stakes. This method charges all players equally. Rake Other cardrooms will "rake" a percentage of the final pot, up to some maximum, before awarding it to the winning player. The usual rake is either 5% or 10%, capped at $3 or $4. If the pot is raked, the dealer will remove chips from the pot as it grows, setting them aside until the hand is over and they are dropped into a slot in the table. This method favors the tight player who enters few pots but wins a large fraction of them. Button Charge A simpler method is to collect a fixed amount at the start of each hand; one player, usually the one with the dealer button, pays the entire amount of the drop. Depending on house rules, this "button charge" of $2-$4 may or may not play as a bet. If the chips do play as a bet, this method also favors the tighter players, but not nearly as much as the rake does. Regardless of the mechanism, a cardroom will try to drop about $80-$120 per hour at a $3-$6 table. The exact amount is most dependent on the local cost of doing business: Nevada is low, California and Atlantic City are high. Since there are 7-10 players at the table, expect to pay somewhere from $7 to $14 per hour just to sit down. Add $2-$4 per hour for dealer tips and you see why most low-limit players are long-run losers. Paul Stine College Station, TX | ||
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| Re: Triple Blinds in California, mroban, 26. Jun 2003 14:42 | ||
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| yeah, it was a button charge. That makes sense. I actually didn't see them raking so now I get it...I am much more used to the rake in Atlantic City. Totally agree about low limit players being long term losers. Since I tend to tip a lot my profit margin in low limit casino games is ridiculously low. I think $5-10 is the cutoff for me to be profitable. Playing $3-6 and $2-4 in B&M I never seem to be able to get ahead that much. At the Taj in AC, I find the $5-10 game on Saturday nights to be fairly profitable and get a mix of good players and "action" players that think they are good but are way too loose. | ||
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| Re: Triple Blinds in California, Jav, 26. Jun 2003 15:43 | ||
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| Raking is NOT illegal in California. Maybe some communities or cities have a law like that, but I have played at several poker rooms in CA that do a 10% rake. Including Oceans Eleven (California Card Club in Oceanside, North San Diego County) and Viejas (Indian Casino). | ||
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| Re: Triple Blinds in California, noiseboy, 26. Jun 2003 14:41 | ||
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| Yeah, the drop is a drag. It makes some of the low limit games really hard to beat, unless you happen to sit down in a really soft game. At least when it plays as a bet, you might get to see a flop with position for the price. | ||
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| Re: Triple Blinds in California, mroban, 26. Jun 2003 14:55 | ||
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| Exactly. At least with a rake if you are having a bad run of it, you aren't paying for it. I had a fairly mediocre run the last time I played - took a few bad beats on some suckouts, and one only a few pots (1 was a very big one which salvaged the evening somewhat). I played for 3 hours and we averaged about 45 hands an hour (I think). That means I paid $12-15 in hands that I was more or less folding. Plus, I tipped the dealer $6 (yes, I only took down 6 pots), spent $10 on dinner and $6 on waitress tips (5 cups of coffee plus my dinner tip). Forgetting about dinner (which was pretty cheap) thats $24-27 of tips and tokes plus the drop. If I just paid a rake on those 6 hands I won that would probably be about $18 deducted from those pots on the average (figuring an average of $3 each). So maybe at the end of the day it evens out. Still, I ended up down $25 on the evening (including the tokes and tips, but not including my dinner). No wonder people like to play online sometimes better. Having said that, it still is more fun for me to play with actual human beings but clearly I am more profitable on line. | ||
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| Re: Triple Blinds in California, SendMoney, 27. Jun 2003 02:00 | ||
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| I've played at Hollywood Park and the $1 drop on the button is for the Progessive Bad Beat Jackpot. The upside is that the $1 counts towards your hand, although it is $1 less for the pot if you win. Example: In a $3-$6 Hold Em game they drop the $1 for a jackpot, and then it is only $2 to call, or $5 to raise - this is only for preflop on the button. This gives enormous incentive to see the flop on the button if it's unraised, since you only have to call $2 you get good pots odds and you have the best position. Besides that there is nothing to protect, your $1 dollar has already been removed from the table. | ||
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| Re: Triple Blinds in California, mroban, 27. Jun 2003 10:51 | ||
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| Send you are exactly right - it gives enormous incentive to see the flop for $1 when unraised. Which resulted (that evening) in me playing more marginal hands on the button than I might normally play. Also, twice (as a result of this incentive) I got flops I liked that I couldn't get away from when someone made their flush or straight on the turn or river. My point is, it takes a loose game and makes it looser which on bad nights are more costly to your payroll. But in general, I suppose the looser game can be more profitable. | ||
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| Re: Triple Blinds in California, shorn, 27. Jun 2003 11:18 | ||
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| If I am hearing it correctly and the $1 is removed from play, it shouldn't influence your "calling" decisions all that much. Similar to decisions in the small blind (where you need to call 2/3 of a bet) you should still be somewhat selective in the hands you play. HOWEVER, you are on the button, so if you have a chance to steal you should do so more aggressively since it only costs you 5 to win 4 instead of 6 to win 4. | ||
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| Re: Triple Blinds in California, 4 POKER, 30. Jun 2003 02:40 | ||
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| I have just returned from California and had no experience with having to pay a fee on the button. Let me ask.... for anyone who is familiar with poker in California, is this strictly a rule that is applied for the lower limits? Triple blinds??? Everyone talks about paying "juice" in California and I'm curious if you guys are referring to paying "time". You pay time every half hour or at the game that I played in mostly,(the 20-40 stud 8 or better game), the game was raked. They took a $3 rake per hand and noone had to pay any time/juice on top of that. Even when I played in the $20-40 hold-em games at the Commerce, I payed the same exact amount of money that I would have payed if I were to have been playing in AC which was paying time every half hour. Now I know that when I play in AC, the $20-40 stud game is a time game in which they take $7 every half hour and for someone who does not enter that many pots (like myself), I would much rather pay a rake than to be subjected to paying time. Not to mention that being a smoker(like myself), paying rake definitely has its advantages over paying time, but that's another story. (I just wanted to add that one in)! 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Triple Blinds in California, hudson, 30. Jun 2003 10:01 | ||
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| Hey 4P, I am at once fortunate and cursed to live in San Francisco--tempting card rooms, but a dick-tease of a baseball team--and my approach to the "button blind" is simply to tighten up a touch in early and mid position (try to call one less hand) because I know that each round is costing me an extra bet. Also, since many players out here (especially at the lower limits) will defend the button 100% of time it makes those borderline call/raise middle-late hands an easier play and early raises more profitable. Stealing the button, on the on hand, requires an assault rifle. | ||
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