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Server Time: 3/11/2010 11:05:19 AM PACIFIC |
 NL Tour. - Was I wrong?, donrhem, 26. Jun 2003 10:20 | ||
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| Last Sunday I just played my first NL tournament at the Mirage. We were down to two tables, 5 players each playing hand for hand. 1st-9th place pay ($400 for 9th and over $5k for first) and make the final table. I have about 6k left which is about the lowest at my table. I didn't have time to check the other table. I am in the BB (500/1000) and the blinds were going up in 2-3 minutes. UTG folds, next calls, next fold and SB calls. The first caller is the chip leader ($60k+) and hasn't slowed played a hand all day. I go all in with AJos and the chip leader calls. Was this the correct move? He had JD suited. Flop can 742 with none of his cards and he hits a T on the turn. Oh well. Thanks, Don | ||
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| Re: NL Tour. - Was I wrong?, Mark, 26. Jun 2003 10:53 | ||
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| You made a good play in a tough situation. Because of your short stack and the increasing blinds, it would be very diffucult for you to sit back and wait for someone else to get busted out, putting you in the money. The only way you can't make the all-in move is if you think there is a strong chance that someone else will get blinded out before you do. And doing this will only get you in the money, you won't have any chance of moving up in place or winning. mark | ||
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| Re: NL Tour. - Was I wrong?, Risky Business, 26. Jun 2003 11:07 | ||
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| You were wrong..........BY NOT FINDING OUT WHAT WAS GOING ON AT THE OTHER TABLE!! If anyone were to complain, politely say "I'll play quickly if you provide me with $400....the cost of making a mistake at this point." That being said, I think I may have folded and waited (which is not what I thought on my first read through) Even though the blinds are going up, the other table, or even yours may lose a player.....combining the tables and 'possibly' giving you more time before the blinds hit you again, i.e. more hands. 50/50 coin flip if I was in your shoes. on 26. Jun 2003 10:20 donrhem wrote: > Last Sunday I just played my first NL tournament at the Mirage. > > We were down to two tables, 5 players each playing hand for hand. 1st-9th > place pay ($400 for 9th and over $5k for first) and make the final table. > > I have about 6k left which is about the lowest at my table. I didn't have time > to check the other table. > > I am in the BB (500/1000) and the blinds were going up in 2-3 minutes. UTG > folds, next calls, next fold and SB calls. The first caller is the chip leader > ($60k+) and hasn't slowed played a hand all day. > > I go all in with AJos and the chip leader calls. > > Was this the correct move? > > He had JD suited. Flop can 742 with none of his cards and he hits a T on the > turn. > > Oh well. > > Thanks, > Don > | ||
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| Re: NL Tour. - Was I wrong?, shorn, 26. Jun 2003 11:23 | ||
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| I agree with Risky here simply because I am not sure you had enough information about the other table to make the move. If you had seen that the lowest stack at the other table was at $10k, then it is less of a marginal play. Additionally, there are two types of players lkate in a tournament that you want to avoid going all-in against with marginal holdings: the chip leader because he/she has lost fear of busting out (so he/she is more apt to call you), and another small stack because they are more likely to call because they need to increase stack size as well so are more likely to call. You want to make this play against average stacks. Finally, you would have had $4500 left after playing this hand and small blind, enough for at least 1 more rotation (if not 2), even at higher blinds. I might have just taken the free play and maybe bet the flop (if it was uncoordinated enough to have helped anyone which is then believable because you got the free play) and tried to survive a little longer. | ||
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| Re: NL Tour. - Was I wrong?, donrhem, 26. Jun 2003 11:35 | ||
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| First, I made a mistake in my original post. The caller had JT suited so he paired on the turn. I agree with both of you. The first thing I told my wife after busting out was that I never should have gone all in. However, after the flop I probably still would have bet since I had two over cards and there was no way that flop would have hit him. I still think he would have called after the flop. Overall I had a great experience and got to hear Howard L. and others at the UB seminar. I can't wait to play again! Don | ||
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| Re: NL Tour. - Was I wrong?, shorn, 26. Jun 2003 11:37 | ||
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| Not only that, you came in 10th which is pretty darn good for your first tournament...well done indeed. | ||
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| Re: NL Tour. - Was I wrong?, Paul Stine, 26. Jun 2003 12:40 | ||
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| on 26. Jun 2003 11:35 donrhem wrote: > First, I made a mistake in my original post. The caller had JT suited so he paired on the > turn. > > I agree with both of you. > > The first thing I told my wife after busting out was that I never should have gone all > in. > > However, after the flop I probably still would have bet since I had two over cards and > there was no way that flop would have hit him. I still think he would have called after > the flop. > > Overall I had a great experience and got to hear Howard L. and others at the UB seminar. > I can't wait to play again! > > Don > This illustrates an interesting situation. That is, "Should I raise all-in before the flop, or call with my good, but not great hand, and save my chips for a bet on the flop?" If you are ahead of your opponent pre-flop, moving all-in pre-flop might force your opponent to make a large mistake by calling. Big mistakes are better than small mistakes in general. That must be tempered by the fact that your opponent will now not have another opportunity to make a bad decision on this hand. There will be no more action (assuming a heads up hand) hence no more decisions the cards (and card gods) will determine the outcome of the hand. (He won't be in a position to fold that runner runner draw because the action is closed.) So, which is better? Do you want to move all-in before the flop and give your opponent the opportunity to make one large mistake or do you want to present him with a couple opportunities to make mistakes by calling and betting out? I think that if someone else has already entered the pot, you are better off delaying your decision until the flop is seen. The flop represents about 72% of a hand which is a lot of information. If no one has opened the pot, I think I like moving all-in it means that no one has much committed to the pot and it makes it easier for them to fold a marginal hand (and they probably won't fold a good hand regardless of your bet.) Another factor to be considered is the amount of chips you have to deal with. If you can't open the pot for a standard raise (say, 4 times the BB) and still have enough chips to make a decent bet on the flop (at least half the pot) then you should probably just jam it all in and hope the card gods are smiling on you. If you make a pot size raise pre-flop and only have a little left, your opponent will probably have odds to just about any draw. Paul Stine College Station, TX | ||
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| Re: NL Tour. - Was I wrong?, stdioh, 26. Jun 2003 14:18 | ||
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| I like what you have to say on this shorn. Indeed, I think that the raise was ok, but you really should have checked the other table first. | ||
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| Re: NL Tour. - Was I wrong?, Big_Slick, 26. Jun 2003 12:13 | ||
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| I'm the type of player who likes to wait regardless of whether I'm running low on chips. This is especially true in a NL game where anyone can hit the road at any time with an all-in move. That being said, A-J is a pretty darn good hand against 4 opponents. If an Ace or a Jack flops, then you're the hero. It just so happens that you got outdrawn. There was a similar post last week and I'll bring up the same point I brought up then. When you are low man on the totem pole and you go all-in, people with larger stacks love to take shots at getting you out. I'm willing to bet that if you had $50,000 in chips that Mr. 10-J would have folded his hand and given you the blinds. Add the fact that you are in early position, and you are giving the whole table a chance to say "Gosh, I don't have a terrific hand, but I might get lucky with my trash and throw this guy out of the tournament. Hey, even if I lose, I still have plenty of chips." Your all-in play is a much stronger move in late position with only the blinds left to act. Granted, this is only a 5-player table so it's not like you're going through 8 players but it's a consideration. Anyways, congratulations on your finish. The knowledge you gained from this experience far outweighs the money you won. Out of curiosity, what was the buy-in? | ||
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| Re: NL Tour. - Was I wrong?, donrhem, 26. Jun 2003 12:34 | ||
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| The buy in was $125 with unlimited re-buys for $100 in the first hour and one add on for $100 and you get $1000 in chips at the end of the first hour. What made it even better for me is I played a $25 satellite and won the entry plus $100. I did one re-buy and everyone did the add on so the tournament cost me a total of $100! I knew a few of the players in the tournament from playing 10-20 for a few days prior. Everyone I talked to said the Mirage tournament is one of the better ones in Vegas. It runs everyday Sunday-Thursday. Next time we go I am going to go out on a Sunday morning and stay through the week. Thanks again for all of the advice! Don | ||
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| Re: NL Tour. - Was I wrong?, LJH, 26. Jun 2003 13:09 | ||
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| donrhem, you were wrong. you had a nothing hand, and after the small blind you had lots of time to get something good or for someone else to be knocked out. ljh | ||
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| Right play., stdioh, 26. Jun 2003 14:16 | ||
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| I think you did the right thing here. As the chip leader he can afford to raise his good hands and he would likely have raised AJ or better himself. You've got to worry that he's holding AA and looking to catch somebody, but you do have one of the aces so that situation becomes all the less likely. Chances are he's holding something like KJ or a very small pair there and is just dicking around. You're really in need of chipping up at this point and can't be terrified of the bubble. Also, since you're up against such a behemoth, you can't afford not to commit yourself to the pot because if you don't hit you don't want to be chased out and actually have the best hand. Thus, I think this all in bet was correct. That said, the small blind's limp was very stupid. He should either be folding there with some junk or isolating with a good hand. Though it could be that he had a very decent hand, but was petrified of the bubble and wasn't willing to risk more of his stack. | ||
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| Re: Right play., shorn, 27. Jun 2003 05:54 | ||
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| I agree with Andrew on this one. Check and see the flop for free and then go all in if you help or if you still have two overcards and rags flop. You are in the blind, so with this play they will have to give you credit for at least a piar if rags flop, and if you help, you are probably ahead. I don't like going all-in from the BB when you aren't quite at desperate time. And, since you were up against the chip leader (and didn't have time to check the other table to see where you stood overall), I think it was the wrong play. | ||
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| Re: NL Tour. - Was I wrong?, flintsword, 26. Jun 2003 14:21 | ||
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| This is really interesting since it pits the all-in crowd at any cost versus the more cautious souls that like to have information before leaping off the cliff. In your position I prefer to go all in with a good pair, since at least against a high hand such as AQ, a pair such as 99 stands an ok chance to do well. AQ or AJ offsuit is, alas, on the wrong side of the coin flip, ... but remains close to a coin flip. I love information, and recognize that information for one, is for all. Just a call would have, as Paul Stine pointed out, given you a lot of info. If the flop was AJ2, you could slowplay and turn an all-in play into a major harvesting opportunity. You could also fold on a bet and be no worse off than before. I think you had enough chips to tempt fate and the poker gods further. Just my opinion and thanks for the situation. I am looking at short stack situations right now. Thanks! flintsword | ||
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| Re: NL Tour. - Was I wrong?, Andrew Wells, 26. Jun 2003 17:46 | ||
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| Given that you are one seat away from the final table, I would have preferred to check and see the flop. Having the small blind come in, I think I would want to get some play out of the hand rather than pushing all-in. AJ is the kind of hand that I may want to make some type of play with on the flop, especially out of the big blind. If I'm playing well, I welcome having more options. There's so many things that can be done on the flop with your stack size, particularly if you do end up deciding to steal. In my opinion it is much easier to win a pot from the blinds on the flop than before the flop, when someone has you easily covered. | ||
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