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Server Time: 10/12/2008 4:45:22 AM PACIFIC |
 WPT Championship comments, Easy E, 25. Jun 2003 20:59 | ||
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| Okay, I missed much of the first hour, here are my notes from there: Alan makes a nice bet with the 82c, but was 200K too low? How can Kirell not come over the top of Alan with a Q and a Q99 board? Is he thinking check-raise the turn? Alan screwed that up by checking behind... Kirill should NEVER have shown that hand at the end- let Alan wonder... unless Kirill was setting up a play sequence down the road? While I was watching the infamous JJ/Q8/AJ hand, I was thinking to myself (influenced by seeing the cards, I'm sure, but still...) "here's the thought process going on. Ted sees Doyle's all-in reraise of Alan's 100K as an overbet of the pot. Ted plays with Doyle a lot, figures Doyle for making a move and calls all-in with AJoff." Then, Alan had one of two thought processes: "Ted knows Doyle and Doyle is famous for making pressure moves. If Ted wasn't involved, I'd call Doyle pretty quickly. Ted is coming under Doyle without a big pair. My Jacks are good, I can call." or... "They both could be making a move. I'm got both of them well-covered. I'll chance that my Jacks are good or could catch." Phil Ivey's slowplay checking with Aces, four kicker on the flop AND turn was interesting... does the 140K river bet serve any purpose (too late to get called by anything but a better hand? Or not?) other than to keep Phil from showing the hand? Kirell's 100K raise with AKc makes Phil go all in with AQoff? Was Kirell showing the same aggressiveness earlier in the tournament with lower hands, that went with this type of raise? Mike Sexton- a late semi-apology for the "Tiger Woods" fiasco of a few months ago. Phil DOES look like Tiger a litte, displayed a similar demeanor when he busted out (maybe even less emotion than Tiger).... so I officially let that one go now! I think Kirell HAD to bet his 76off when the flop came As8sTd. Kirell bets 150K turn... and Alan calls?? Then Kirell makes a GREAT move on the river flush card, which he doesn't have any part of.... lots of guts. Oh, Mike S says Kirell is a "heads-up specialist" ? Maybe that explains it. Kirell takes another pot with an all-in bluff bet on the river.... gutsy, but will it come back to bite him? Can Alan adjust? Ted Forrest calls Kirell a "very tight and solid player"... ? tight? Yep, Kirell gets sucked in by Alan's slowplay of the set of Queens and the 100K bet on the turn with the house... Did Kirell's play change after that? Seemed that way to me, but can't be sure about what hands we missed offcamera. Kirell and Alan raised and played a lot of the smaller hands, looking to catch the opponent in a trap. Doyle would have been proud? The play of these two made me think of a chess match- planning moves far ahead, using past moves to set up changes in direction later, moves/countermoves over multiple hands... we REALLY need a hand count to determine how far out they were planning. I didn't like Kirell's call of Alan's turn bet (with trips) when the 8's paired, with only a pair of 3's. Did Kirell see Alan as loose/super aggressive? Kirell's Big SLick vs. Alan's Q9s. the river bet by Kirell of 200K, how can Alan even THINK about calling? Man, the strategy and thought process for these people is so far above my head, it's dizzying.... or, they were both drunk! Why didn't Kirell reraise Alan's button raise to 100K, with K6h?? Don't you want to slow him down a bit here? Or maybe not, if you think you can outplay Alan post-flop... I was REALLY surprised when Alan checked the 5s7s4c6h board with a pair of 5's... AND they both check the river. (sit down, you may not believe this)- a GOOD Vince VP quote "..changed to a totally different mood". Granted, it was post-play, but at least he said SOMETHING that went with the game... How could NEITHER player make a move on the river when the Ah made Broadway AND a flush? Alan with two pair, Kirell with K4off... SOMEONE has to take a shot at this, don't they? Oh, VVP back to normal- "nice value bet by Alan" ... yeah, easy to say when you can see the cards and KNOW that the 3 overcards aren't a problem. And THEN Vince wimps when Kirell raises, saying "..THAT'S why you don't make a value bet..." Vince, look up the definition of "value bet" please. Uh oh, it's the "WPT 10:58 rule". I turned to my friend, who was commenting on Kirell catching the straight, and said "Alan wins with a full house". I could have BET that freeroll, without even knowing that Alan won the tournament, because it was 10:58. I KNEW the full house was coming (even though I didn't know it beforehand). I had to explain the 10:58 rule to my friend... Well, what a great few months of poker television- DEFINATELY a watershed series! As much as I've bitched about things, and as much as I'd gladly stuff a baby porcupine down Vince's throat after all of his inane comments, I'd like to thank the people who conceptualized and executed the WPT series, along with the Travel Channel. Heck, I'll even thank you, Vince, for giving us such a great lightning rod! This should really push the production company doing the 2003 WSOP for ESPN. We'll see what WPT does in response to the 7 days of shows from ESPN, starting in 2 weeks. I'll consolidate responses from the "WPT suggestions" threads in a week or two, put it back out here for final approval before I forward all of our thoughts to the World Poker Tour. Good night, everyone! Easy "wish I was getting paid by the word" E | ||
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| Re: WPT Championship comments, shorn, 26. Jun 2003 05:08 | ||
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| I will tell you, seeing some of the junk that these guys were raising and calling with really made me question my ability as a NL player. With the hands they were playing pre-flop (especially when it got to heads up), we didn't need a hand count because they must have been playing EVERY hand. It was insane. There were some unreal moves in that match, especially the 82s move by the Russian. You had to know that at some point moving all-in with shite would catch up to him, but man...nuts of steel. I also didn't understand Phil's move with AQ. But I thought the worst play of the night was Alan's call of Doyle's all in raise and call by Ted. Isn't that an automatic throw away as the chip leader?? If it isn't, then i give up as a NL player. Granted, he called with the best of it, but he had to figure that the two players combined had at least 6 outs to beat him (any Q, K, or A). I would have mucked JJ there without thinking (of course that is why I am a nobody writing this and Alan has $1 million in prize money for winning the darn thing). Anyway, I loved the series and am really looking forward to the WSOP series in two weeks. These shows are bringing so many bad bad players to poker, that the "prize pool" for all of the rest of us has increased exponentially. | ||
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| Re: WPT Championship comments, Risky Business, 26. Jun 2003 06:14 | ||
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| You don't specify, so I will................don't doubt your ability to play NL tournaments, just NL in general. These guys have to avoid playing like rocks or they'll never get action when a hand comes. I know you could figure this out, but proportionally speaking, a $100,000 bet with $1.7 million in your stack is only 5.8% of your stack. No worries. We saw the $300,000 bets too, but never more than that until the all-ins came, so maybe take the percentages, and learn from that. I think this show just exposed the Russian and he shouldn't expect many more Heads Up titles, which I've never heard of anyway. on 26. Jun 2003 05:08 shorn wrote: > I will tell you, seeing some of the junk that these guys were raising and calling > with really made me question my ability as a NL player. With the hands they were > playing pre-flop (especially when it got to heads up), we didn't need a hand count > because they must have been playing EVERY hand. It was insane. > > There were some unreal moves in that match, especially the 82s move by the Russian. > You had to know that at some point moving all-in with shite would catch up to him, > but man...nuts of steel. > > I also didn't understand Phil's move with AQ. But I thought the worst play of the > night was Alan's call of Doyle's all in raise and call by Ted. Isn't that an > automatic throw away as the chip leader?? If it isn't, then i give up as a NL > player. Granted, he called with the best of it, but he had to figure that the two > players combined had at least 6 outs to beat him (any Q, K, or A). I would have > mucked JJ there without thinking (of course that is why I am a nobody writing this > and Alan has $1 million in prize money for winning the darn thing). > > Anyway, I loved the series and am really looking forward to the WSOP series in two > weeks. These shows are bringing so many bad bad players to poker, that the "prize > pool" for all of the rest of us has increased exponentially. | ||
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| Re: WPT Championship comments, shorn, 26. Jun 2003 06:43 | ||
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| Fair enough. I guess my point was that if I want to be successful in NL tourny's (and I do), I need to make more changes to my game than i thought. I consider myself a solid ring game player, but the moindset for NL is so different that a lot of the ring game concepts just don't apply, or they apply but with a significant amount of augmentation because you can force people off of good hands much easier than you can in limit. | ||
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| Re: WPT Championship comments, Nathaniel Brous, 26. Jun 2003 07:03 | ||
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| on 26. Jun 2003 05:08 shorn wrote: <snip> >But I thought the worst play of the night was Alan's call of Doyle's all in raise and call by Ted. Isn't that an automatic throw away as the chip leader?? If it isn't, then i give up as a NL player. <snip> Hey shorn. Don't give up. I have read many accounts of this incident including Doyle's on Pokerpages. I have great respect for Alan's talent, but I seem to be in the minority on this. I believe that it was an easy and an good call for Alan. People seem to think that Ted's overcall should have scared Alan. I completely disagree. The time Ted took on the hand pretty much said that he did not have the goods and that he thought that Doyle was "making a play at the pot." This should have simply encouraged Alan's call here. Let's bring the chip count into view. Doyle and Ted each have only .5 mill where Alan had over 2 mill at this point. Alan is not risking the chip lead by calling here. I contend that if it was right for him to call Doyle's bet heads up than it was more right to call after Ted came into the pot. There is an extra .5 mill for the same price. I will grant that he did not want to triple up either of these players. I simply think that the play was not as poor as many do. - Nathaniel Brous | ||
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| Re: WPT Championship comments, shorn, 26. Jun 2003 07:27 | ||
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| That is a fair point Nathaniel. Ted did take longer than he should have with the call and being the aggressive player that he was, if he had a pair higher than JJ, he would have beatn Doyle into the pot. But, I still think that Alan's call was marginal at best, just for the plain fact that he would have given someone else 1.5 vs. his 2.0 if he lost and he had to at least figure Ted for 1 if not 2 overcards making it a 53% lead. Again, I am certainly no expert and Alan would take every diem I had. I just don't like the play with JJ. | ||
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| Re: WPT Championship comments, Big_Slick, 26. Jun 2003 07:28 | ||
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| I thought the worst play of the night was Alan's call of Doyle's all in raise and call by Ted. I agree. Whenever there's a chance for someone to get knocked out, step back and watch the show. By the end of the hand, you'll have one less opponent to worry about. I guess Alan had never won a tourney though. I guess that goes to show how luck can play a large part in poker. | ||
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