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Server Time: 2/13/2012 4:15:31 PM PACIFIC |
 Re: What is your approach to this? (CONT), shorn, 25. Jun 2003 12:37 | ||
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| Give me 6 hands that in a tight aggressive game with you on the button could actually be in the hand without (1) a Queen being in any of them or (2) a drawing hand or a combination of drawing hands for a QT flop. I think you are hard pressed to come up with 6 that fit the bill. Therefore, THERE IS NO CHANCE THAT EVERYONE WILL FOLD so since you can't win it right there, it is a waste of $$ to bet. I view this situation the same as the one you posed way back where KK shouldn't bet into QJs that flopped and up/down with a flush in NL where you said "you aren't really ahead because the likelihood that you will be outdrawn is too high". This is in the same category because of the # of people in the hand, the type of game *where people play only solid cards), and the size of the pot giving correct odds to call. Any ONE of those factors by itself would not warrant a check here, but the confluence of all of them together makes checking the correct play in EV space. | ||
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| Re: What is your approach to this? (CONT), stdioh, 25. Jun 2003 13:29 | ||
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| No no no no no no no. Rocks. Understand? Rocks. They fold top pair on the flop. | ||
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| Re: What is your approach to this? (CONT), shorn, 25. Jun 2003 13:32 | ||
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| So a rock with fold KQ or AQ or KJ with that flop with 13 best in the pot???? C'mon...they will fold AT perhaps. Like I said before, give me 6 hands that rocks would all limp with AND call the pre-flop raise that they would ALL fold with two cards in the playing zone. You have made my point for me...there aren't 6. | ||
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| Re: What is your approach to this? (CONT), stdioh, 25. Jun 2003 13:38 | ||
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| Yes, a true rock would fold AQ there. He's put you on KK or AA and pitch his hand in the muck. That is what they do. Why do you think rocks lose money? It's not because they play tight. | ||
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| Re: What is your approach to this? (CONT), shorn, 25. Jun 2003 13:43 | ||
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| Well if that is true, then why wouldn't he muck pre-flop to your raise? I guess I don't play with someone tight enough to fold AQ to a QT2 rainbow flop. Can you please send him my way? | ||
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| Re: What is your approach to this? (CONT), stdioh, 25. Jun 2003 13:55 | ||
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| Yeah, but do you ever play at a table where the blinds are being chopped every second hand? | ||
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| Re: What is your approach to this? (CONT), Wren, 25. Jun 2003 14:51 | ||
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| Hmm...can i butt my head in here again? In the original post, mongi described a tight/aggressive game, but he didn't mention how weak his opponents were. A lot of blind chops preflop does not impy that the game is full of rocks (ie excessively weak players who will do things like fold top pair, good kicker on the flop to one bet when there's a big pot). I'm not going to get into the original argument here (ie betting vs. checking on Q high board holding JJ), but I thought it would be prudent to point out the above. | ||
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| Re: What is your approach to this? (CONT), noiseboy, 25. Jun 2003 15:07 | ||
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| Right, if it was tight weak, I think the bet would DEFINITELY be correct, due to the fact that there is some chance that everyone will fold. But I think what is likely in a tight aggressive game is that somebody has a Q and is trying to check-raise. Also, in aggressive games sometimes people will check raise a draw if they are in early position, then semi-bluff raise if they have more than two or three callers. You have five opponents who are ALL the type to play big cards and muck the low ones. They've all called a raise before the flop, and expect you to bet when they check to you. Weak opponents will "check to the raiser", but aggressive players usually check to you if they intend to raise. Another hand somebody might have is 2nd pair with an overcard kicker which aggressive players will also check-raise. With fewer players, or weak players, I'm sure betting is right, but I'm just not sure in this case that it is right. The chances are you don't have the best hand here, why put money in a pot that will mostly benefit whoever is on the best drawing hand? | ||
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| Re: What is your approach to this? (CONT), noiseboy, 25. Jun 2003 15:14 | ||
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| I think the basic source of the disagreement might be the original post where he says on the one hand the game was "tight aggressive", which to me implies a tough game, but then says "blinds were chopped every other hand", which implies an easy game where you can run over people. My guess is that the original poster exaggerated a bit and that "every other hand" may have just seemed that way if the poster normally plays in games where they NEVER chop. Anyway, my advice is in the first game description you should check, the second weaker game description you should bet! | ||
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| Re: What is your approach to this? (CONT), shorn, 25. Jun 2003 15:52 | ||
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| Yes, yes, yes!!!! The key is that is is an aggressive game with 6 callers, so they won't play crap cards. A check raise is certainly plausible with this flop. | ||
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| Re: What is your approach to this? (CONT), noiseboy, 25. Jun 2003 16:21 | ||
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| I would even say it was probable. An aggressive player wouldn't think twice about checking his st8 draw, or 2nd pair overcard kicker to you, hoping several people call before it gets to him so s/he could raise. I think the main thing is that you and I interpreted the game conditions differently than stdioh focusing more on "tight aggressive" and less on "chopped every other hand". If a game is literally "being chopped every other hand" then I would think it is actually impossible for that game to be Aggressive, I mean if it's folded to an aggressive player on the button, even if he's normally tight, he or she will take after those blinds with a lot of hands. If they don't, then they aren't really aggressive. I was with you on being surprised at Roy & stdioh's response, but I think it's just due to the different interpretations of the game conditions described in the original post. | ||
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