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Server Time: 3/16/2010 7:54:50 AM PACIFIC |
 5 Card Draw Hand - question, mroban, 25. Jun 2003 10:38 | ||
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| I am typically an Omaha8/Holdem player, but in our regular "friendly" game one player always calls Pot Limit 5 Card Draw Jacks or better to open. We had a really interesting hand yesterday that I am interested in discussing. 5 handed game $1 antes, nobody can open so the game checks around to the dealer who opens. He raises $1, 2 players fold (amazingly), 3rd player calls, I call (holding Ac-Kc-Jc-Td-Ts). I call as well. Dealer draws 3 cards, revealing to all a pair of Jacks or better. 3rd player draws 1 card. Seeing that I had to beat a pair of Jacks or better and a player drawing to a straight or flush, I much my TT and draw 2 cards hoping for the longshot flush (that the Dealer's feeble $1 bet gave me the implied odds to do, I think). Dealer makes a pot sized raise and the 2nd player re-raises. I fold (as I draw a Qc but also a rag - agonozingly close but no cigar). Dealer thinks about it long and hard and pushes basically the rest of his stack into the pot. 3rd player flips over the straight (which he informs was an inside straight). Dealer drew another K for KKK and took a painful one on the chin. I think the dealer made 3 critical errors - 1) he should have made a pot sized bet before the draw. The second player was very hot and probably would have called anyway, but I certainly would have folded; 2) he could have disguised his hand better perhaps by drawing only 2 cards (he still had the best hand anyway at that point); 3) he should have checked after the draw - why risk the bet? if player number 2 missed his hand, he was not going to call. If he made his hand he would reraise, which cost the Dealer his stack. What I would or not do is not the issue at that point. Despite drawing 2 cards he had to know he had a better hand than me b/c I did not open. As for my play, I am sure I was correct to call. But did I do the right thing throwing away my TT? Obviously the TT was a huge underdog, with only 2 cards in the deck to improve. But I thought I had the right odds to call the $1 getting 6-1 on the flush (9-1 odds but great implied odds if I hit the hand) with a nut straight possibility as well. Would I have been correct to fold rather than call a pot size raise pre-draw? While the dealer was going to lose this hand anyway since the 2nd player was surely going to call, I think making a pot raise pre-draw was the correct play (no matter the outcome). He at least would have narrowed his field and been able to focus heads up on the 3rd player. Obviously betting into him was a disaster and was a very silly decision. | ||
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| Re: 5 Card Draw Hand - question, stdioh, 25. Jun 2003 11:54 | ||
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| I think that drawing to the backdoor flush there was very silly. You're much better off in this case taking 2 cards and keeping TTA - you've got 2 cards and 6 outs and it is cheap for you to draw. Obviously you don't want to draw to the gutshot (4 outs and one card) and drawing 3 cards to the tens will more often than not make you a 2 pair that is no good. Also, nobody else openning and his weak openning should cue you in to the fact that there are likely more aces in the deck than your fair share. Drawing to the backdoor flush was stupid. You've got to get 2 perfect cards for the flish and that is about a 1 in 25 shot. Yes, you would make a monster hand if you got it, but you wouldn't have the implied odds to justify drawing so thin. | ||
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| Re: 5 Card Draw Hand - question, TKarrde, 25. Jun 2003 12:49 | ||
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| I'm looking for a comment on throwing away only ONE 10 and getting your Q for the nut straight. Where was that at? Did I miss something? TKarrde "You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never to get involved in a land war in Asia. And only slightly less well known is this: never go in against a Sicilian (Mozman) when death is on the line!" | ||
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| Re: 5 Card Draw Hand - question, mroban, 25. Jun 2003 13:15 | ||
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| its funny you mention that - i had a feeling player 3 was drawing to a straight and the gutshot odds gave me only 4 outs. I had 11 outs trying to hit the backdoor flush (which i had to do 2x) and thought that was a better play. But yeah, either were just as stupid. I suppose the TTA was the right play. But what about the Dealer's play (forget about me for now)? | ||
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| Re: 5 Card Draw Hand - question, TKarrde, 25. Jun 2003 13:31 | ||
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| To catch the flush you need to hit 10 outs out of 47 unknown cards and then 9 outs out of 46 unknown cards..... or 4%. The gut shot would have been 4 outs out of 47 unknown .... or 8.5%. Why the dealer stayed after the re-raise I do not know. Unless he thought the guy was bluffing. TKarrde "You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never to get involved in a land war in Asia. And only slightly less well known is this: never go in against a Sicilian (Mozman) when death is on the line!" | ||
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| Re: 5 Card Draw Hand - question, stdioh, 25. Jun 2003 13:32 | ||
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| Assuming that you wanted to beat the hand that the other player was drawing to and not have to try to win with 2 pair or trips, you were twice as likely to hit the top straight by dropping one ten than you were to hit the backdoor flush by dropping both tens. | ||
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| Re: 5 Card Draw Hand - question, mroban, 25. Jun 2003 13:40 | ||
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| it does help to have decent math skills, doesn't it? thanks guys...draw is far and away my weakest game. | ||
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| Re: 5 Card Draw Hand - question, Mark, 25. Jun 2003 20:16 | ||
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| First off, if your going to play that hand, you need to be pretty sure (or at least have a good chance) that the opener does not have more than pair. Once your in the hand... At first i thought the obvious play was to keep the A-10-10 and draw two. You know the opener has a pair (better than yours) and the other caller has a draw. You need to get a hand that beats a high pair, and hope the drawer misses. So, you have two chances to catch Aces up, and a slim chance at catching 10s up, both good enough to beat the pair. This is probably the best percentage play. But, drawing to the gutshot straight might not be a bad play either. Instead of having 3 outs (to the ace) you have 4 outs to the gutshot straight. And if you hit this hand, you may beat the drawer even if he hit his draw. Drawing to the backdoor flush is the worst of all your possibilities. As for the openers play, he should have made a pot size open and hope to take the antes. And the gutshot draw had good odds to call mark on 25. Jun 2003 10:38 mroban wrote: > I am typically an Omaha8/Holdem player, but in our regular "friendly" game one > player always calls Pot Limit 5 Card Draw Jacks or better to open. We had a > really interesting hand yesterday that I am interested in discussing. > > 5 handed game $1 antes, nobody can open so the game checks around to the dealer > who opens. He raises $1, 2 players fold (amazingly), 3rd player calls, I call > (holding Ac-Kc-Jc-Td-Ts). I call as well. > > Dealer draws 3 cards, revealing to all a pair of Jacks or better. 3rd player > draws 1 card. Seeing that I had to beat a pair of Jacks or better and a player > drawing to a straight or flush, I much my TT and draw 2 cards hoping for the > longshot flush (that the Dealer's feeble $1 bet gave me the implied odds to do, > I think). > > Dealer makes a pot sized raise and the 2nd player re-raises. I fold (as I draw > a Qc but also a rag - agonozingly close but no cigar). Dealer thinks about it > long and hard and pushes basically the rest of his stack into the pot. > > 3rd player flips over the straight (which he informs was an inside straight). > Dealer drew another K for KKK and took a painful one on the chin. > > I think the dealer made 3 critical errors - 1) he should have made a pot sized > bet before the draw. The second player was very hot and probably would have > called anyway, but I certainly would have folded; 2) he could have disguised his > hand better perhaps by drawing only 2 cards (he still had the best hand anyway > at that point); 3) he should have checked after the draw - why risk the bet? if > player number 2 missed his hand, he was not going to call. If he made his hand > he would reraise, which cost the Dealer his stack. What I would or not do is > not the issue at that point. Despite drawing 2 cards he had to know he had a > better hand than me b/c I did not open. > > As for my play, I am sure I was correct to call. But did I do the right thing > throwing away my TT? Obviously the TT was a huge underdog, with only 2 cards in > the deck to improve. But I thought I had the right odds to call the $1 getting > 6-1 on the flush (9-1 odds but great implied odds if I hit the hand) with a nut > straight possibility as well. Would I have been correct to fold rather than > call a pot size raise pre-draw? > > While the dealer was going to lose this hand anyway since the 2nd player was > surely going to call, I think making a pot raise pre-draw was the correct play > (no matter the outcome). He at least would have narrowed his field and been > able to focus heads up on the 3rd player. > > Obviously betting into him was a disaster and was a very silly decision. > > | ||
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| Re: 5 Card Draw Hand - question, Andrew Wells, 25. Jun 2003 23:46 | ||
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| There's also two more tens available to make it five outs, and catching a pair of kings isn't too bad either. | ||
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| Re: 5 Card Draw Hand - question, mroban, 26. Jun 2003 06:52 | ||
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| thanks guys. draw is definitely my worst game and I only play it when my friend calls it. this is very helpful (and logical). | ||
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| Re: 5 Card Draw Hand - question, stdioh, 26. Jun 2003 07:46 | ||
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| Drawing to the ATT is far better than drawing to the gutshot. You have 3 ace outs to make aces up. You have 2 ten outs to make trips, and you have 3 outs to pair whatever the first card you pick up is. That means that you have 5 clean outs with 2 cards to come and you also have 3 dirtier outs with one card to come. If you draw to the gutshot you only have 4 outs with only one card, making it much much much harder to hit. It isn't worth calling here and drawing if you're going to draw to the gutshot. | ||
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| Re: 5 Card Draw Hand - question, Mark, 26. Jun 2003 09:27 | ||
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| My thinking about the gutshot was that if you made your hand you could beat the other drawer when he hit his hand, but now i see this is wrong. The odds of both draws coming and the Ace high straight being best are way too low for it to be a worth while play. I just had to think about it for a minute. mark | ||
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| Re: 5 Card Draw Hand - question, mroban, 26. Jun 2003 10:08 | ||
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| since it is a potlimit game (which my example is) and there was one caller drawing one card acting before me, isn't the implied odds affected here if you actually drew the nut straight ?. The possibility that the other caller was drawing to a flush or the same nut straight probably destroys the implied odds of the gutshot draw yes? At least that is the warped logic that led me to go for the backdoor flush (since it was a nut flush). I will no longer argue that the backdoor flush was the correct play (since I have been resoundedly ridiculed for the amateurish play). Seems like the TTA was the right play since the gutshot still could have been outdrawn. So the TTA had the best implied odds and actual odds. Is this the right way to look at it? | ||
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| Re: 5 Card Draw Hand - question, Mark, 26. Jun 2003 12:13 | ||
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| > Seems like the TTA was the right play since the gutshot still could have been outdrawn. So > the TTA had the best implied odds and actual odds. Is this the right way to look at it? The TTA was the right play becasue 1. I can improve to beat the higher pair and 2. The draw won't get there that often, so you don't need to beat a made hand, you only need to beat a busted draw. Whenever the str8 draw makes his hand, it will probably be the best in this scenario, but it won't get there that often (about one in 5, assuming an open ender or flush draw). So by drawing to the A1010, you have the best chance of 1. making a hand and 2. having that hand be the best hand. Your not really looking to out draw the str8, your looking to beat the pair and hope the str8 doesn't get there. mark | ||
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| Re: 5 Card Draw Hand - question, stdioh, 26. Jun 2003 14:50 | ||
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| First of all there is no "nut" flush in draw. There are 4 ways to make an ace high flush, just like there are 4 ways to make an ace high straight. The difference is that when you make an ace high straight against another you chop - with the flush you may not be so lucky. In this case you had the ace and king so you are very unlikely to lose to a better flush - very very unlikely, but that is irrelevant because drawing to the flush is not worthwhile. Here your aim is to beat the opener, not the other drawer. If the other drawer comes out hard you could be in some trouble, but your concern is beating 2 pair (nonace). | ||
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