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Server Time: 11/21/2008 5:48:20 PM PACIFIC |
 How low can you let your stack go?, flintsword, 24. Jun 2003 14:31 | ||
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| TJ Cloutier's all-in play with 77 (losing to QQ, but that is a detail) in last Friday's post brings up a great question: "At what point (considering your stack ...) do you make a move to double up?" By an interesting coincidence, the latest Paul Samuel poker column looks into this with some good insight. (www.pokerpages.com/articles/archives/samuel20.htm) including the critical observation that if you wait 20 to 25 hands for the 80%+ expectation-to-win hand to finally arrive, and win, ... even if you double up you are no better off than when you started to wait for that hand. So I can further refine the question: "How low can you let your stack go before you start making a move?" Since you generally want to make a bet 3 x BB to get any kind of attention, and 9 x BB to reraise a initial raiser if you have AA or KK (or make a move w garbage and give the impression you have that kind of hand ...), the minimum stack you "seem to" need is 9 times the BB. I would really like to hear other player's thoughts on what key point (as a function of BBs) of your stack do you go from "playing the hands to make progress" to "I have to make a move soon". It would certainly be useful to know that point. I have generally made my "alarm zone" 12 x BB and particularly look for reraising or check raising with top hands to maximize the amount of chips in the pot. I have an uncomfortable feeling that this strategy may be flawed, so I might as well get blasted here by my friends at UPF than in a tournament again. Thanks for you input in advance! flintsword | ||
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| Re: How low can you let your stack go?, Mark, 24. Jun 2003 16:13 | ||
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| In NL hold'em tournys, i constantly make moves agaisnt opponents who will fold. I don't consider my stack size vs BB unless i am on the bubble (close to the money). (I always consider my stack size compared to my opponents stack.) But i make a move when ever the situation seems right (late position, or agaisnt tight opponents). When i'm short stacked, or in danger of becoming short stacked, i will wait a little while, but not long. Depending on the game conditions i may just limp with a drawing hand and wait for the flop to make a move, or i may push all-in with garbage pre-flop. It really all depends on the table and the opponents and thier stacks. mark | ||
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| Re: How low can you let your stack go?, flintsword, 24. Jun 2003 20:57 | ||
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| Very pragmatic. So far, there are two schools of thought here: the "fight and make moves, I sink or swim" group, and the more patient "I will accept getting ground into flour if the cards decree so" group. Great contrast of ideas. Is one right, or both "depending" on game circumstances? Thank you Mark, for your candid comments, I appreciate it. I take it that "the patient outlook right down to the felt" is not in the cards for you. Is it safe to say you fight and use any opportunity the opponents and the cards afford you in the game, including a compete bluff? Clearly, if your stack gets too low, your opponents will be on the lookout for an all-in play with a marginal or junk hand. Do you prefer to make a move before your stack gets too low so your opponents are not alerted to a low stack all-in play? I am trying to get a handle on the right timing for making a move when a stack gets too low, so sorry for the somewhat simplistic questions, and thanks in advance for your input. flintsword | ||
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| Re: How low can you let your stack go?, stdioh, 25. Jun 2003 08:08 | ||
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| It is all about balance between the two camps you mention. If you're fishing around when your stack isn't terrible you'll be pummelled when you only get called by hands that dominate yours. If you just don't play at all you'll literally get blinded to the felt. Finding the right balance is subtle and I'm not even 100% certain that I've quite got it yet. | ||
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| Re: How low can you let your stack go?, Mark, 25. Jun 2003 09:11 | ||
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| > Is one right, or both "depending" on game circumstances? It not only depends on game circumstances for me, but also on the opponents. Alot of times i'm all set up to make a move against a player, then someone else does something unexpected, then i have to fold. Or i will be thinking of folding and someone makes a weak play, then i come back with a re-raise. Other times i will sit patiently and wait for a hand, if i feel its necessary. Also, you must be comfortable with which ever style you choose. If you hesitate making big rerasies, or only make small rerasies, your moves may get unwanted calls. >Is it safe to say you fight > and use any opportunity the opponents and the cards afford you in the game, including a > compete bluff? Yes, whenever the situation feels right, even complete bluffs (although i always like to have an out) >Clearly, if your stack gets too low, your opponents will be on the lookout > for an all-in play with a marginal or junk hand. Do you prefer to make a move before your > stack gets too low so your opponents are not alerted to a low stack all-in play? Yes, ideally i never want to be short stacked. When i am severly short stacked, its usually because i made a move with a dwindling stack at the wrong time, or too many moves too close together. I don't like to bluff/semi-bluff/value-bet when i'm short stacked because one wrong move can bust me. Mark | ||
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| Re: How low can you let your stack go?, Andrew Wells, 24. Jun 2003 18:23 | ||
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| I'm not sure there is any predetermined amount as a ratio of stack to big blind size. I look for every possible situation to make a move from the onset to the last all-in. If I don't have cards or a reasonable chance at a steal when under blind pressure, then I just get ground out instead. I have seen many players just resign and shove all-in when they are low with anything. I don't play that way. Even the last couple of chips have value as an all-in from the big blind. If there's nothing I can do to avoid getting blinded out, then so be it. | ||
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| Re: How low can you let your stack go?, Risky Business, 24. Jun 2003 19:18 | ||
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| I couldn't agree more with Andrew on this one (see my finish in the UPF at PP tourney). Why would you play for 5 hours to get in the money, then waste a possible better finish because you THINK you're the next to go out. If you're playing absolutely nothing, all you have to have in front of you is ONE small and ONE big and your finishing position can improve dramatically. on 24. Jun 2003 18:23 Andrew Wells wrote: > I'm not sure there is any predetermined amount as a ratio of stack to big blind size. > I look for every possible situation to make a move from the onset to the last all-in. > If I don't have cards or a reasonable chance at a steal when under blind pressure, > then I just get ground out instead. I have seen many players just resign and shove > all-in when they are low with anything. I don't play that way. Even the last couple > of chips have value as an all-in from the big blind. If there's nothing I can do to > avoid getting blinded out, then so be it. | ||
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| Re: How low can you let your stack go?, Tim C, 24. Jun 2003 20:15 | ||
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| I agree with Risky and Andrew Wells, I will not play junk and give up on a dog hand. I have been down to one chip twice and made it in to the money. You can't predict when the cards will turn in your favor, but if you are on the rail you have no shot. If I blind out it's not my day. This doesn't mean you can't loosen up your standards, A9o or 9 10s look pretty good sometimes. | ||
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| Re: How low can you let your stack go?, flintsword, 24. Jun 2003 21:15 | ||
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| Now I am not talking about the special case where you are either close to the money, on the bubble, or just shy of the payout position. I am specifically targeting the situation where, ... in the body of a tournament, you find your stack dwindling. How do you take action, at what point generally, and do you compromise your starting hand standards? Being close to the money ennobles a lot of behaviours that would otherwise not make sense, say, 75% through a tournament of 320 players (The maximum number of players in the WPO Warmup August 30th, hint, hint). For example, coasting may be the right move, even if you have QQ facing a 3xBB raise from a player UTG. Not disagreeing with your comment, just further defining the circumstances surrounding my question to exclude the special behaviours on the bubble and immediately before that point. Thanks for your viewpoint, ... the fact there is dissent means that I have asked a really subjective question. flintsword | ||
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| Re: How low can you let your stack go?, Andrew Wells, 25. Jun 2003 09:57 | ||
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| The special behaviors near the bubble have nothing to do with mucking trash hands. This is all about refusing to play a good hand to avoid the possibility of a bad beat that puts you out. If one defines very short as a stack that is less than 1/4 size of the next shortest stack, but also enough to get past the next set of blinds, then I'm going to get involved with a few more hands that I would ordinarily muck. These would include AX KT QJ JT 76s and 22. However I'm only looking to be the first player to enter the pot all-in. If anyone even calls before the action gets to me (when I'm not in late position), I let go of these hands. I might in the right circumstances push all-in from the button against a single late or middle position player. Both blinds would have to not be large stacks, and the player I hope to isolate would have to be loose. The key to playing when you are short is to recognize the potential for a situation that you can play heads-up. If I can't avoid playing against two or more opponents, then I either wait for a strong starting hand or get blinded out. | ||
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| Re: How low can you let your stack go?, flintsword, 24. Jun 2003 21:06 | ||
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| I agree that patience is a virtue in poker. The purist in me wants to wait for the right cards or get ground down. The fighter wants to use whatever tools I have to bring my stack up at a certain point. The question is: What is that point on a practical level? Recent modifications in my play adjusting my aggressivity in proportion to my stack size (Ironically more aggressive at low stack levels, less aggressive at average stack levels, becoming more aggressive at comfortable stack levels and chip leader positions) have stopped me from getting booted chipless out of tournaments early. I suspect this is more a result of "selective aggression" rather than "loose play", but I have to admit they seem close when my stack is dropping close to 12 BBs. flintsword | ||
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| Re: How low can you let your stack go?, chasepoker, 25. Jun 2003 04:51 | ||
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| The more i get to know about poker the more i always end up saying it depends ! I think you have to wait for the right opportunity not necessarly the right starting hand, i mean if you get say KJo but somebody has already raised it up to make you all in do you call ? But then you get tht same KJo on the button with no-one else in the pot you probably raise to try and make a stand / steal the blinds. It seems to me to be a constant balancing act between not getting busted out and not taking too much risk when you dont have to. I guess ( and i by no means think i am anywhere near this yet ! ) that it just takes lots and lots of experience as i believe it is one of those subjects that is so dependant on situation. I hate it when people give these " non answer " answers but unlike a topic such as eg " Should i raise with AQs at a loose table UTG in a ring game " where there is probably a correct response i believe that this question is so situation specific that the best way to practice it is by playing ! Just my 2p ( i mean 2 cents ) Chasepoker | ||
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| Re: How low can you let your stack go?, flintsword, 25. Jun 2003 07:48 | ||
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| Thanks Chase, you are right, .... How you play the cards you have is always a heavily "it depends" situation. I am trying to get some input about the way good players manage their stacks as a function of the betting levels, specifically when your stack gets ground down. There must be a point where a good player "knows" that his stack is not acceptable in comparison to the blinds and antes, which means it is time to make some moves or perhaps adjust your minimum playing requirements. Knowing when good players determining this point is important, IMO, for two reasons: (1) I want to know to consider changing my play to accommodate a better evaluation of my position in a tournament, and (2) being able to recognize the range of stack values that a good player will start betting with less than premium hands to address the problem of a decreasing stack. I suppose this is more of a stack question than a card question, but you and I both know that once I get a better idea of the point at which a low stack has to be addresses, the question of how much do you want to change (or CAN you change or SHOULD you change) your minimum playing hands will come up right away. Tough question and the option of throwing card selection to the four winds, growing gills, and playing anything and everything just because you are short-stacked is not the option I am looking for. I have been giving a lot of thought to the the observation by Paul Samuel (www.pokerpages.com/articles/archives/samuel20.htm) that a player finding themselves short stacked, waiting for a hand with (say) an 80% expectation of winning, can expect to lie in wait for 20 to 25 hands, which leaves the player worse off than before. Since we all know that thinking about poker problems is a good way of improving your play, I throw this out for guidance from the brighter lights of the poker world to comment. Thanks for the input to date and feel free to hit the subject again. flintsword | ||
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| Re: How low can you let your stack go?, Andrew Wells, 25. Jun 2003 10:08 | ||
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| If your stack would still be the smallest at your table even if you doubled up, might be the defining point you are looking for. It's not about how many current big blinds are left in your stack, it is a condition relative to the other short stacks. It is not uncommon in a large and fast moving tourney that pays say the top five places, for many players to be below 5 big blinds at both remaining shorthanded tables. The tournament chip leader may only have 10 big blinds as well. So it's all about comparing your stack to everyone elses. | ||
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| Re: How low can you let your stack go?, Risky Business, 25. Jun 2003 10:17 | ||
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| hmmmmm, I'll buy into that. So I have to ask myself... "self, is it worth waiting around for power hands to get cracked if I'm doubling up and still behind by a factor of 2 or 4. " on 25. Jun 2003 10:08 Andrew Wells wrote: > If your stack would still be the smallest at your table even if you doubled up, might be the > defining point you are looking for. It's not about how many current big blinds are left in your > stack, it is a condition relative to the other short stacks. It is not uncommon in a large and > fast moving tourney that pays say the top five places, for many players to be below 5 big > blinds at both remaining shorthanded tables. The tournament chip leader may only have 10 big > blinds as well. So it's all about comparing your stack to everyone elses. | ||
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| Re: How low can you let your stack go?, ranwel, 25. Jun 2003 07:07 | ||
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| NL Hold'em tournaments and sats. I like to play with regards to how "deep' or "shallow" the money is relative to stack sizes that have entered the pot. If I my stack is 20 times or more than the BB, I try and remain very selective, but very aggressive. When my stack gets between 10 and 20 times the BB, I will start to loosen up and gamble some. If my stack gets lower than 10 times the BB... its kamikaze time. Just my two-cents... and keep the change :) ranwel - official hackee-sak to the Poker Gods | ||
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| Re: How low can you let your stack go?, stdioh, 25. Jun 2003 08:10 | ||
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| Yes, I also use 20 big blinds as a key index of my stack strength. If I have 20 big blinds in my stack I will play it more like I would in an NL cash game. If I'm under 20 BB then I start to play a little looser and a little more weak-agressive. Of course it really depends on the tournament format as to whether it should be 20 big blinds or something else. | ||
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| Re: How low can you let your stack go?, stdioh, 25. Jun 2003 08:06 | ||
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| Generally speaking you should be pushing all in more than calling all in. You don't try to get into a coinflip position and hope to win. You push your stack in to steal the blinds, but with enough kick to it that it has a good chance of winning if you get a caller. | ||
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