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Online Poker deck shuffle, TKarrde, 24. Jun 2003 07:02
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I know this has been discussed briefly before but my friends and I were talking about the topic and I'm trying to get some additional info.

Does anyone know with any certainty how each poker site does their shuffling? Is there a table with every convievable possibility (I know, I know but I had to ask) which is selected randomly? Is each hand generated randomly before it is dealt? Is each card generated randomly before it is dealt?

And then we could delve into what is "random" and how is it selected.

Mike/Roy, can you answer this question for Plant Poker?

TK
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Re: Online Poker deck shuffle, A-Train, 24. Jun 2003 07:58
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TK,

Here is a link to UB's explanation of their RNG. Great reading, if your looking for a headache.

http://www.ultimatebet.com/acct_services/rng.html
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Re: Online Poker deck shuffle, SmellsLikeVictory, 24. Jun 2003 09:14
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I judge the randomness of a shuffle based on the expected results. Here's my stats from Paradise, courtesy of PokerStat. Pretty much in line with expectation:

Total hands you were dealt cards: 73889

All suited starters dealt: 17268 (23.37%)
All suited starters expected: 17386 (23.5%)

All connected starters dealt: 11644 (15.76%)
All connected starters expected: 11590 (15.7%)

Suited connector starters dealt: 2881 (3.90%)
Suited connector starters expected: 2898 (3.92%)

Paired starters dealt: 4437 (6.005%)
Paired starters expected: 4346 (5.88%)

AKo dealt: 705 (0.954%)
AKo expected: 669 (0.905%)

AKs dealt: 229 (0.310%)
AKs expected: 223 (0.302%)

Any AK dealt: 934 (1.264%)
Any AK expected: 892 (1.21%)

A's dealt: 319 (0.432%)
K's dealt: 299 (0.405%)
Q's dealt: 352 (0.476%)
J's dealt: 350 (0.474%)
T's dealt: 363 (0.491%)
9's dealt: 352 (0.476%)
8's dealt: 319 (0.432%)
7's dealt: 345 (0.467%)
6's dealt: 336 (0.455%)
5's dealt: 365 (0.494%)
4's dealt: 331 (0.448%)
3's dealt: 350 (0.474%)
2's dealt: 356 (0.482%)
Each pair expected: 334 (0.452%)

Total hands you were dealt cards: 73889
Times a flop dealt when you were dealt cards: 64068 (86.71%)

When user dealt AK, flops at least one A or K: 279 (31.81%)
expected: 284 (32.4%)

USER HAS ANY TWO SUITED CARDS (dealt 15273 times):
Using both user's hole cards, flopped a:
3 flush: 6295 (41.22%) expected: 6352 (41.6%)
4 flush: 1665 (10.90%) expected: 1671 (10.9%)
5 flush: 145 (0.95%) expected: 129 (0.842%)
Three cards on the flop make up a:
3 straight: 477 (3.12%) expected: 487 (3.18%)
2 flush: 8410 (55.06%) expected: 8418 (55.1%)
3 flush: 843 (5.52%) expected: 797 (05.22%)
any pair: 2577 (16.87%) expected: 2586 (16.9%)
Hand user flops:
High card: 7997 (52.4%) expected: 8037 (52.6%)
Pair: 6179 (40.5%) expected: 6172 (40.4%)
Two pair: 648 (4.24%) expected: 617 (4.04%)
3 of a kind: 235 (1.54%) expected: 240 (1.57%)
Straight: 53 (0.35%) expected: 63 (0.412%)
Flush: 143 (0.94%) expected: 128 (0.835%)
Full house: 16 (0.105%) expected: 14 (0.0918%)
Four of a kind: 0 (0.000%) expected: 2 (0.0102%)
Straight flush: 2 (0.013%) expected: 1 (0.00589%)
Royal flush: 0 (0.000%) expected: 0 (0.000654%)

USER HAS ANY PAIR (dealt 4101 times):
Using both user's hole cards, flopped a:
Underpair (to flop): 968 (23.60%) expected: 962 (23.5%)
Overpair (to flop): 958 (23.36%) expected: 962 (23.5%)
Set: 456 (11.12%) expected: 472 (11.51%)
Quads: 6 (0.146%) expected: 10 (0.245%)
Three cards on the flop make up a:
3 straight: 128 (3.12%) expected: 130 (3.18%)
2 flush: 2267 (55.28%) expected: 2257 (55.0%)
3 flush: 198 (4.83%) expected: 212 (5.16%)
any pair: 673 (16.41%) expected: 703 (17.1%)
Hand user flops:
High card: 0 (0.0%) expected: 0 (0.00%)
Pair: 2990 (72.9%) expected: 2946 (71.8%)
Two pair: 642 (15.65%) expected: 663 (16.2%)
3 of a kind: 431 (10.51%) expected: 442 (10.8%)
Straight: 0 (0.00%) expected: 0 (0.00%)
Flush: 0 (0.00%) expected: 0 (0.00%)
Full house: 32 (0.780%) expected: 40 (0.980%)
Four of a kind: 6 (0.146%) expected: 10 (0.245%)
Straight flush: 0 (0.000%) expected: 0 (0.00%)
Royal flush: 0 (0.000%) expected: 0 (0.00%)

USER HAS OFFSUIT CONNECTORS FROM 54o to JTo (dealt 4018 times):
Using both user's hole cards, flopped a:
Open ended: 310 (7.72%) expected: 344 (8.55%)
Double belly: 29 (0.72%) expected: 21 (0.531%)
Straight: 56 (1.39%) expected: 51 (1.26%)
Three cards on the flop make up a:
3 straight: 117 (2.91%) expected: 127 (3.15%)
2 flush: 2256 (56.15%) expected: 2212 (55.0%)
3 flush: 194 (4.83%) expected: 207 (5.16%)
any pair: 676 (16.82%) expected: 680 (16.9%)
Hand user flops:
High card: 2117 (52.7%) expected: 2115 (52.6%)
Pair: 1614 (40.2%) expected: 1624 (40.4%)
Two pair: 164 (4.08%) expected: 162 (4.04%)
3 of a kind: 59 (1.47%) expected: 63 (1.57%)
Straight: 59 (1.47%) expected: 50 (1.23%)
Flush: 0 (0.00%) expected: 0 (0.00%)
Full house: 5 (0.124%) expected: 4 (0.0918%)
Four of a kind: 0 (0.000%) expected: 0 (0.0102%)
Straight flush: 0 (0.000%) expected: 0 (0.00%)
Royal flush: 0 (0.000%) expected: 0 (0.00%)

ALL FLOPS SEEN BY THE USER:
Three cards on the flop make up a:
3 straight: 2040 (3.18%) expected: 2041 (3.19%)
2 flush: 35359 (55.19%) expected: 35275 (55.1%)
3 flush: 3339 (5.21%) expected: 3316 (5.18%)
any pair: 10754 (16.79%) expected: 10854 (16.9%)
Hand user flops:
High card: 31997 (49.9%) expected: 32109 (50.1%)
Pair: 27193 (42.4%) expected: 27073 (42.3%)
Two pair: 3065 (4.78%) expected: 3046 (4.75%)
3 of a kind: 1331 (2.08%) expected: 1354 (2.11%)
Straight: 240 (0.37%) expected: 251 (0.392%)
Flush: 143 (0.22%) expected: 126 (0.197%)
Full house: 85 (0.133%) expected: 92 (0.144%)
Four of a kind: 12 (0.019%) expected: 15 (0.0240%)
Straight flush: 2 (0.003%) expected: 1 (0.00139%)
Royal flush: 0 (0.000%) expected: 0 (0.000154%)

Total hands you were dealt cards: 73889

Total final boards seen when you were dealt cards: 41880

USER HAS ANY TWO SUITED CARDS (dealt 10221 times):
Four flushes flopped: 1220 (11.94%)
expected: 1119 (10.9%)
When flop four flush, got flush: 415 (34.02%)
expected: 427 (35.0%)
Hand user has at river:
High card: 1778 (17.4%) expected: 1781 (17.4%)
Pair: 4263 (41.7%) expected: 4358 (42.6%)
Two pair: 2287 (22.38%) expected: 2259 (22.1%)
3 of a kind: 442 (4.32%) expected: 443 (4.33%)
Straight: 495 (4.84%) expected: 466 (4.56%)
Flush: 719 (7.03%) expected: 665 (6.51%)
Full house: 213 (2.084%) expected: 227 (2.22%)
Four of a kind: 10 (0.098%) expected: 13 (0.126%)
Straight flush: 13 (0.127%) expected: 7 (0.0663%)
Royal flush: 1 (0.010%) expected: 1 (0.00781%)

USER HAS ANY PAIR (dealt 2864 times):
A set flopped: 354 (12.36%)
expected: 323 (11.3%)
When flop set, got boat or quads: 111 (31.36%)
expected: 118 (33.4%)
Hand user has at river:
High card: 0 (0.0%) expected: 0 (0.00%)
Pair: 1056 (36.9%) expected: 1016 (35.5%)
Two pair: 1120 (39.11%) expected: 1132 (39.5%)
3 of a kind: 354 (12.36%) expected: 336 (11.7%)
Straight: 43 (1.50%) expected: 54 (1.90%)
Flush: 56 (1.96%) expected: 56 (1.95%)
Full house: 212 (7.402%) expected: 245 (8.54%)
Four of a kind: 23 (0.803%) expected: 24 (0.842%)
Straight flush: 0 (0.000%) expected: 0 (0.0160%)
Royal flush: 0 (0.000%) expected: 0 (0.00182%)

USER HAS OFFSUIT CONNECTORS FROM 54o to JTo (dealt 2576 times):
Flopped open ended: 231 (8.97%)
expected: 220 (8.55%)
When open ended, got straight: 66 (28.57%)
expected: 71 (30.7%)
Hand user has at river:
High card: 449 (17.4%) expected: 443 (17.2%)
Pair: 1103 (42.8%) expected: 1101 (42.7%)
Two pair: 544 (21.12%) expected: 574 (22.3%)
3 of a kind: 108 (4.19%) expected: 112 (4.35%)
Straight: 254 (9.86%) expected: 235 (9.12%)
Flush: 44 (1.71%) expected: 50 (1.95%)
Full house: 71 (2.756%) expected: 57 (2.22%)
Four of a kind: 3 (0.116%) expected: 3 (0.126%)
Straight flush: 0 (0.000%) expected: 1 (0.0209%)
Royal flush: 0 (0.000%) expected: 0 (0.00110%)

ALL RIVERS SEEN BY THE USER:
Hand user has at river:
High card: 7443 (17.8%) expected: 7292 (17.4%)
Pair: 18243 (43.6%) expected: 18353 (43.8%)
Two pair: 9754 (23.29%) expected: 9840 (23.5%)
3 of a kind: 2014 (4.81%) expected: 2023 (4.83%)
Straight: 2004 (4.79%) expected: 1935 (4.62%)
Flush: 1323 (3.16%) expected: 1267 (3.03%)
Full house: 1007 (2.404%) expected: 1087 (2.60%)
Four of a kind: 73 (0.174%) expected: 70 (0.168%)
Straight flush: 18 (0.043%) expected: 12 (0.0279%)
Royal flush: 1 (0.002%) expected: 1 (0.00323%)

Four to a flush on board 1835 (4.382%)
expected: 1797 (4.29%)
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Re: Online Poker deck shuffle, TKarrde, 24. Jun 2003 09:26
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Nice info. Thanks.

TKarrde

"You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never to get involved in a land war in Asia. And only slightly less well known is this: never go in against a Sicilian (Mozman) when death is on the line!"
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Re: Online Poker deck shuffle, stdioh, 24. Jun 2003 13:18
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Not to bust your bubble, but those stats are totally meaningless due to the tininess of the sample size. If you sent out 1000 people to collect such stats it is statistically very likely that at least one of them would have increadibly oddball statistics (this would be the guy who says, "DONT PLAY AT POKER ROOM X THERE FIXED YOUR GUNNA LOOSE ALL YOUR MONEY THEIR.") ... thus you don't have a reasonably large statistical base to know that your statistics are relatively close to what they should be.
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Re: Online Poker deck shuffle, TKarrde, 24. Jun 2003 13:43
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I'd have to respectfully disagree.

1) You only need a small sample to be accurate to your desired confidence level. SLV has way more than enough.

2) Look at his results to those of the expected result.

HEY... CAN I GET A STATISTICIAN IN HERE!

TKarrde

"You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never to get involved in a land war in Asia. And only slightly less well known is this: never go in against a Sicilian (Mozman) when death is on the line!"
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Re: Online Poker deck shuffle, stdioh, 25. Jun 2003 08:17
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It just becomes a question of how confident you want to be. Generally speaking, no person plays enough on a site to be able to say that the site is dealing the cards fairly to any kind of reasonable guess. The reason is that you're looking for slight discrepencies within reasonable and thus your very small confidence interval also needs a very small standard deviation and that means a very very very large number of hands.
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