UPF - All in Pre-Flop v. Post Flop

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All in Pre-Flop v. Post Flop, Dr_Monkey, 24. Jun 2003 05:01
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I was in a sit and go NL tournament. 5 players left including me. Blinds 150/300. SB-1900 in chips, BB-1000, UTG-1500 (me), 2000 and button 3500 The chip leader was aggressive and was stealing a good share of the blinds. I get pocket Tens. I figure this is my chance to make a move. I move all in. 2 players fold instantly. SB thinks about it. Then thinks some more. I figure he has a low Ace. If I was in his shoes, I would fold, BUT he goes all in. Sure enough he shows Ace-5 unsuited. My first thought is I have the advantage. My second thought is watch this guy get an Ace on the river. The flop comes. Bunch of rags. Nothing over a Ten. Feeling a little more confident. The Turn comes. more rags. More confidence, with a feeling of pending gloom. The River. Bingo. His evil Ace. I am gone. Did I play this right? I went all in because 10-10 is a pretty decent hand I think. Late stage of tournament. Pretty large blinds. Players are tightening up. If I would have called. Maybe the other 2 players would have still folded. The all in increases the chance of them folding. The SB would have called. Three would have seen the flop. Since the flop was rags. If the SB or BB bet or not, how successful do you think an all in move by me would have been after the flop? I think the SB took a gamble with A5. The pre-flop all in didn't scare him enough. Would a post flop all in be more successful?
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Re: All in Pre-Flop v. Post Flop, shorn, 24. Jun 2003 05:15
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I think I would have raised the blind to half of my stack which says "I am pot committed" to this hand and potentially sends the message that you havew a very strong hand. In my experience, the "all-in" pre-flop play (especially when you are 4th in chips) sends a "I'm desperate" message and doesn't show as much strength. Granted, the SB made a terrible call and hit. However, if he had just called your pre-flop bet and you had gone all in on the flop, my guess is that he would have mucked with his one overcard at that point. By going all-in, he got to see all five cards and even if he lost, he still had some chips left.
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Re: All in Pre-Flop v. Post Flop, Dr_Monkey, 24. Jun 2003 06:03
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Thanks for the advice. I didn't think of the "I'm desperate" message that I might be displaying. I'll have to keep that in mind the next tourney I play.
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Re: All in Pre-Flop v. Post Flop, mroban, 24. Jun 2003 07:25
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being no expert myself and just starting to play NL sit and go's, I like steve's answer the best. But essentially, if not for that unlucky river, you would have been the chip leader at that point. Seems like making plays like that will win you more SnG's than not. He got lucky and if you had seen his cards you probably would have still made that play. If knowing he was playing Ax you still would have made that play again (and I think you would) then you did the right thing.
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Re: All in Pre-Flop v. Post Flop, Mark, 24. Jun 2003 08:37
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there was nothing wrong with going all-in. You are a favorite to many hands if you get called ( only a dog to bigger pairs). when you got called by an A5o, you were a 3:1 favorite to win, which is a pretty good situation to be in. He made a terrible call for all his chips and hit his miracle ace. You made a good play but got a bad result. Don't worry about it, just keep playing aggressive and you'll come out ahead. mark
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Re: All in Pre-Flop v. Post Flop, stdioh, 24. Jun 2003 12:58
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Nope. In these sit-n-go's all you need is T1000 when you get 3-handed and you can be there. You don't need to be shoving in manaically. Especially since the top 3 get paid and people want to hang around for third. This was a very fishy play and you cannot make money consistently in tournaments by making moves like this.
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Re: All in Pre-Flop v. Post Flop, Mark, 24. Jun 2003 16:16
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I do
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Re: All in Pre-Flop v. Post Flop, stdioh, 25. Jun 2003 08:20
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Maybe I should revise what I said there - the sit-n-gos on UB are just so fishy that you probably could make money playing this way. You could make a lot more money being tighter on the bubble zone.
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Re: All in Pre-Flop v. Post Flop, Wren, 25. Jun 2003 11:11
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Sounds like this tournament was QUITE tight/solid if 5 players were still left at the 150/300 round. Furthermore, UTG is a small-ish stack. Pushing in with TT here is a fine play. (As a side note, I'm very surprised that A5 called given the situation).
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Re: All in Pre-Flop v. Post Flop, stdioh, 24. Jun 2003 08:49
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TT just isn't strong enough to push all in there. You were lucky to get called by a fish with a bad hand, but playing against competent players this would be a -EV move. The reason is that nobody is going to call you with a worse pair so you're either getting a caller with overcards to you or a caller with a higher pair. You have about a 50/50 chance with the former and a 1/6 chance with the latter. As for the A5, he beat the odds, but they weren't increadibly bad. He has about a 1/3 chance of hitting an ace. Yes, you should have won the hand, but really you shouldn't have been there in the first place. You should have made a smaller raise, seen the flop, and bet your overpair folding him off, shrinking his stack, and increasing yours. If the flop had come with an ace you could have gotten away from the hand without it costing you too much and if he held a weaker hand than yours (say 99) there would be a better chance of inducing him to call you and getting paid off.
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Re: All in Pre-Flop v. Post Flop, Buckeye Mike, 24. Jun 2003 09:27
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If you are not going to play T-T what are you even playing for? T-T not strong enough come on. The only argument against that is he was in 1st position. But your 4th in chips with 5 people left and you don't play that hand aggressively? You're right any flop with A-J with 2 rags and you are a underdog. But there are many starting hands better than T-T and you have to play that strong. How do you know you wouldn't get called with a worse pair? In this case it would have been better to bet half your stack and then raised all in after the flop came 3 rags but you can't fault anyone going all in with T-T with 5 players left.
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Re: All in Pre-Flop v. Post Flop, Buckeye Mike, 24. Jun 2003 09:28
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That should read there are not many starting hands better than T-T.
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Re: All in Pre-Flop v. Post Flop, stdioh, 24. Jun 2003 12:51
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Sweet merciful Jebus, where to begin? First, I think you really need to re-evaluate your tournament play. I don't want to insult you, but I'm going to rebutt you strongly. So I'll predicate this by saying that I don't mean anything personal by it. > If you are not going to play T-T what are you even playing for? T-T not strong enough > come on. The only argument against that is he was in 1st position. But No! KK is not strong enough to push all in when the blinds are 5-10 and everybody at the table has T1000. Know why? Because you'll only be called by somebody with AA. It is just like the river concept in a ring game. If you bet a river with a weak holding it is a mistake because the only hands that will call your bet will beat you. There's no point in folding off a hand that you already have beat on the river. Likewise this is a situation where if your hand is the best you are scaring away those that would pay you off and if your hand is the worst you're putting your head on the block. Few hands that are better will fold here and few that are worse will call. Lots of coin flip (overcards) hands will call you, but you aren't desperate enough to coin flip here, especially since you only get a coinflip if you are lucky and have the crap pounded out of you if you are unlucky. Do you think you'll get a caller who has even a single undercard? Maybe - if you're really lucky, some fish will call you with A9 suited - let me break out the champaign - you have a very marginal advantage over them. This is a pound-me-in-the-arse move and any good player at the table will realize it and target you. your 4th in chips > with 5 people left and you don't play that hand aggressively? You're right any flop with > A-J with 2 rags and you are a underdog. But there are many starting hands better than T-T > and you have to play that strong. How do you know you wouldn't get called with a worse > pair? In this case it would have been better to bet half your stack and then raised all > in after the flop came 3 rags but you can't fault anyone going all in with T-T with 5 > players left. Yes. Playing agressively is a good thing. That is why you would raise the hand. Stealing with it is good which is why you raise it. Why would you push it all in though? You want somebody with a worse pair to call you. You want somebody with suited connectors to call you. You even want AK to call you, but still be able to escape the hand if they hit. Yes, you are the 4th biggest stack with 5 left. So? You could be the lowest stack with 20 left - if they blinds aren't high enough to put you in clear and present danger of blinding out then you don't need to be playing silly buggers making dangerous maniacal reckless moves. I can't stress this enough. No player in his right mind would say, "This guy just shoved all in for a very significant raise and I'm in no danger of blinding out any time soon. I think I'll call with my 99 or worse pair or with my A5 or with my small suited connectors." You might do that, but if you do it then it is because you are a bad bad poker player. Don't assume that just because you would make a move boneheaded enough to pay somebody off who is shoving all in there with TT that it is ok to shove in there with TT. What hands would I consider* calling with there? AK, but only if I had a big enough stack to whether losing well. KQs or AQs, but only if I had a very big stack and could really afford to lose that money. AA and KK - no question, I would call. QQ - I would call if I disrespected the raiser...I would call if felt that I needed to chip up soon - I would call if I could afford to lose it easilly. JJ - I would call if I really disrespected the raiser. TT, 99, 88, 77, 66, 55, 44, 33, 22 - I would call if I needed to take a coin flip - if I would be blinded out in one round and was desperate to double up or get up. AQo, KQo, KJ, QJ, AJ, AT, A9s - same reason as above. I can't see a reason to call with anything other than the above hands at all. The only hands you have an advantage over are hands that don't pay you enough because anybody who would call with them would have too small a stack for you to take the risk on. The long and short of it is that pushing all in here with TT is a mistake. I would be shocked, to say the least, if a respected poster on this forum agrees with you that it is ok to push with it there.
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Re: All in Pre-Flop v. Post Flop, Mark, 24. Jun 2003 16:26
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I don't care if i'm a respected poster or not, but i agree with him. There is nothing wrong with that play. You have the 5th best possible hand in a heads up situation. There are lots of hands that people will call with that are underdogs. If you wouldn't raise with 10-10, what about QQ or KK? You also said in your post that you shouldn't go all in with KK early, because you will only get called by AA. I haven't read about any pro who wouldn't go all in with KK in a good situation. I have personally seen this violated MANY times. Maybe your image, style of play, and personal comfort level dictate that you don't make all-in moves without the nuts, but a well timed all-in can make alot money. Also, you a making a blanket statement about a situational game. Nothing holds true ALWAYS in poker. I can think of more than few times i've gone all-in with 10-10 and came out ahead. mark
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Re: All in Pre-Flop v. Post Flop, stdioh, 25. Jun 2003 08:28
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> You have the 5th best possible hand in a heads up situation. There are lots of hands that people > will call with that are underdogs. If you wouldn't raise with 10-10, what about QQ or KK? No you don't have the 5th best hand. You have a hand that is completely dominated by 4 other hands and is a coin flip with many others and dominates just about no other hands that somebody would play here. Basically you're praying that somebody is going in with AT or 99. Also, I didn't say that I wouldn't raise with TT - I said that I wouldn't push all in here with it. Yes, I would raise KK or QQ here. Comparing KK to TT is like comparing apples to volkswagans. > You also said in your post that you shouldn't go all in with KK early, because you will only get > called by AA. I haven't read about any pro who wouldn't go all in with KK in a good situation. I > have personally seen this violated MANY times. Let me clarify. The following is boneheaded - first hand everybody has T1000. Limp - fold -fold -limp -limp - limp = all-in-with-KK. All of the limpers will fold unless they hold AA or are really stupid. Sure you can get yourself all in with KK early on, but not on a single raise. If blinds are 5-10 and I make it 30 with KK and somebody else shoves in 100, then MAYBE - just MAYBE - if I disrespect him, I'll push all in, but I'll probably throw my kings away there against a good player who wouldn't push it like that with QQ. Most likely I'll call and see a flop and then play it from there. > Maybe your image, style of play, and personal comfort level dictate that you don't make all-in > moves without the nuts, but a well timed all-in can make alot money. It isn't about an all in move without the nuts. It is about an all in move where you will only get called by hands that are better than yours. Why don't you get this concept? The more you get, the better the hands are that are willing to call you. Betting a lot with a marginal hand puts you up against good hands. Of couse you want to raise your "good but not great" hands for value, but shoving all in with TT because it is "the fifth best hand" - which it so isn't is really really dumb. > Also, you a making a blanket statement about a situational game. Nothing holds true ALWAYS in > poker. I can think of more than few times i've gone all-in with 10-10 and came out ahead. I'm talking about the specific situation earlier in this thread. There are plently of times to push all in with TT and plenty of times to push all in with 22 and even with A6o. This instance was one where pushing with TT was very stupid.
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Re: All in Pre-Flop v. Post Flop, Mark, 25. Jun 2003 09:37
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> It isn't about an all in move without the nuts. It is about an all in move where you will only get > called by hands that are better than yours. Why don't you get this concept? Because Dr. Monkey got called by an A5offsuit. I see these kinds of plays all the time from weak players. I understand the concept just fine, but it doesn't apply to alot of low limit or online games. Similar to the betting top pair on river concept, it doesn't apply to alot of online games. Now, after re-reading the original post, i was mistaken. I thought Dr. Monkey was in late postion (i don't know why). Being UTG makes his play MUCH more marginal. I would definately make a large raise from UTG, but i would be alot less likely to go all-in (unless i was short stacked), so I must agree with you on that point. As for being on the bubble (or close to it), i used to play to "get in the money" so i know where your coming from. But after reading Phil Helmuth's book, i have started using his stradegy of aggressive play on the bubble to gather some chips. And it really works, because most people do play tighter on the bubble. Mark
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Re: All in Pre-Flop v. Post Flop, stdioh, 25. Jun 2003 10:31
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I agree with agression at bubble time. I agree that this move would be more appropriate in late position. As for the question of how fishy the game is, I do believe that you can do some relatively questionable things for value against bad players, but I disagree with the extent that you can take it. I think that going in with tens here takes that concept too far. With queens in the position I could see it.
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Re: All in Pre-Flop v. Post Flop, Wren, 25. Jun 2003 11:20
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Au contraire. I think you're way off base, and I certainly agree with pushing in here. I am going to assume, since IMO you are a very competent tournament player, that you didn't catch the other factors - blinds are 150-300, which is absolutely HUGE in a sit n go, and 5 players are left. These factors imply that (a) the players left are all at least relatively solid (b) each and every player is in a position in which he/she MUST take chances or he/she will blind out (c) the gap concept has become very important - you would MUCH rather be making moves yourself than calling a move by another player. IMO, UTG must raise TT here. It is a very solid starting hand in this situation. And he might as well raise all-in, as (1) making a standard raise pot-commits him anyway and (2) going all-in makes hands like AX get poorer odds to draw out.
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Re: All in Pre-Flop v. Post Flop, Andrew Wells, 25. Jun 2003 12:07
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I was waiting for someone to grasp the whole picture in this thread. I don't see any holes to poke in this analysis. Good thinking Wren.
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Re: All in Pre-Flop v. Post Flop, palman, 25. Jun 2003 00:39
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you played it absolutely right in that situation. Here's my analysis of 10-10, J-J and all medium pairs in shorthanded no limit play. The LAST thing you want to do is make a standard raise, have someone call you, and see a flop. you either want to do 1 of 2 things. 1. go all in 2. limp in to see the flop and if you got a set or they're all low cards. When you make a decent sized raise, and someone calls, you can put them on overcards. Then when an overcard hits, you've got to make a tough decision. You're the favorite in this situation going all in. Now if you're a much better player than everyone there, I'd say the limp in would be your best bet, why give them a basic coinflip. If the blinds are large enough, and you are even slightly shortstacked, throw them all in. The guy making the A-5 call was a HUGE dog in this situation. If he had 2 overcards he'd just be a slight dog. But I'd take 10-10 against A-5 all day. stdioh- He was 2nd to last in chips, with the blinds 150/300. If the blinds were 50/100 you'd be correct, but his chip position and the blinds where they are its definately a positive expectation play because its marginal when someone calls and obviously positive when no one calls (which is often). stdioh- You havent played enough sit n go's in the 20-30 dollar range to claim that if you go all in with KK the only people that will call you are AA with the blinds 5/10.
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Re: All in Pre-Flop v. Post Flop, stdioh, 25. Jun 2003 08:39
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> see a flop. you either want to do 1 of 2 things. > > 1. go all in > 2. limp in to see the flop and if you got a set or they're all low cards. In general, you are correct. With marginal pairs like that it is good to get the money in before the flop because on a flop that doesn't hit your opponent he won't pay you off. Getting your money in doesn't mean pushing all in though. If you push all in you're going to get crushed by somebody with a good hand if it is out there and folded to if it isn't out there. Your last few chips are worth a lot more than your other chips and in this instance you can survive without a standard raise worth of chips - you're not that desperate yet. Yes, you shove a raise in and if somebody puts you all in you call - you're pot committed at this point, but pushing in here is just wrong wrong wrong. > When you make a decent sized raise, and someone calls, you can put them on > overcards. Then when an overcard hits, you've got to make a tough decision. What bodily oriface did you pull this out of? When you make a decent sized raise and someone call you could put them on overcards, but you would only be right when they actually had overcards. > You're the favorite in this situation going all in. Now if you're a much better > player than everyone there, I'd say the limp in would be your best bet, why give them > a basic coinflip. If the blinds are large enough, and you are even slightly > shortstacked, throw them all in. No! You don't want to be up against more than one opponent here. You put in a raise to limit the field to one caller if you can or to steal. Ideally you want everybody to fold here so that you get the blinds. Limping is really stupid as you would need everybody to call to just marginally almost give you odds to hit a set. The only way you can win against lots of limpers is to hit a set or be really really really lucky. > The guy making the A-5 call was a HUGE dog in this situation. If he had 2 overcards > he'd just be a slight dog. But I'd take 10-10 against A-5 all day. He was a dog, but not a huge one. He had about a 1 in 3 chance of catching his ace. If he had 99 he would be a huge dog. With 2 overcards you can't really even call him a dog. He's less than 50% to win - barely. It's a crapshoot. > stdioh- He was 2nd to last in chips, with the blinds 150/300. If the blinds were > 50/100 you'd be correct, but his chip position and the blinds where they are its > definately a positive expectation play because its marginal when someone calls and > obviously positive when no one calls (which is often). Nope. There's just no reason to get that desperate yet. He can see plenty of hands without playing one and there will be better opportunities to double through than TT. AK is vastly superior in this respect, simply because you can end up against 2 smaller pairs and be a 50% favourite to tripple through, plus there are a lot more hands that you dominate and only 2 that dominate you. > stdioh- You havent played enough sit n go's in the 20-30 dollar range to claim that > if you go all in with KK the only people that will call you are AA with the blinds > 5/10. I've played plenty of no limit tournaments and they are the strongest part of my game. I know what I'm talking about. Yes, the sit and gos on UB are fishy as hell and I've played plenty where the first hand gets a 4 way all in between QQ-JJ-AJo-66. The point is that all four of these people are making grievous errors and you cannot be a winning player playing like that. Making a stupid move because somebody might be a greater fool is not a good idea. When there is T50 in the middle of the table there's never a good reason to bet T1000 to try to snatch it. T100 will work just as well. And if your hand is that good then you want at least one caller.
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Re: All in Pre-Flop v. Post Flop, palman, 25. Jun 2003 11:51
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many of your points are valid, the only one I'll take huge exception to is "you'll have plenty of times to double up" the blinds are 150/300. One more round of hands and his 1500 becomes 1000, so if he DOES double up, he only goes to 2000. It is desperate time, or let me correct this, going all in with 10s isn't desperate in this situation, its solid aggressive play. The best point was one I just read from wren, if you don't go all in, you let Ax get better odds to try to draw you out, thus increasing your chances of stealing the blinds. Doing anything but going All-in here is too passive for effective shorthanded play when the blinds are high and you're 4th in chips. Its definately the play if you want 1st, if you're just hoping to hang on for a cash out, then perhaps I'm wrong.
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Re: All in Pre-Flop v. Post Flop, stdioh, 25. Jun 2003 12:06
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My point is that there is only 10,000 on the table. Having 2000 when he does double up would be just fine with 5 players left in the game. This is a time to not lose, not a time to try to win.
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Re: All in Pre-Flop v. Post Flop, Wren, 25. Jun 2003 12:12
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But you are going to lose if you don't play TT here strongly. Stdio, please reread the problem as it was originally described. I'm afraid you're making a bit of an arse of yourself here by continuing to dish out advice that's way off base.
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Re: All in Pre-Flop v. Post Flop, gary ford, 25. Jun 2003 12:31
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on 25. Jun 2003 12:12 Wren wrote: > But you are going to lose if you don't play TT here strongly. > > Stdio, please reread the problem as it was originally described. I'm afraid you're making a bit of an > arse of yourself here by continuing to dish out advice that's way off base. I like you both from what you have posted in the past. i have 2 questions; 1. Does studioh have a temper? 2. Is studioh stubborn? Last night, i was utg with 5 players left. I bet T300, was called. Flop was blank. I went all in--call, A7 spiked on ace--as they say-- it all depends. Gary ( no quote )
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Re: All in Pre-Flop v. Post Flop, gary ford, 25. Jun 2003 12:35
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oops-- I had JJ-4th best hand and I'm reading Hellmuth also,even though i think he acts like an ass, sometimes
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Re: All in Pre-Flop v. Post Flop, Wren, 25. Jun 2003 17:27
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Yes and yes, but I wuv him anyway (and besides, he'll tell you that I'm even more stubborn than he is, and he could very well be right :O)
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Re: All in Pre-Flop v. Post Flop, gary ford, 25. Jun 2003 20:55
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on 25. Jun 2003 17:27 Wren wrote: > Yes and yes, but I wuv him anyway (and besides, he'll tell you that I'm even more stubborn than he is, and he could > very well be right :O) thats good he needs a good woman to calm him down lo---at this moment this thread has 37 posts--that may be a UPF record
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Re: All in Pre-Flop v. Post Flop, stdioh, 25. Jun 2003 13:47
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Nope. I stick by what I am saying. It is late in the tourney and shoving all in here is an alarm bell which screams that you are on a marginal raising hand like TT. I would put in a raise of probably 700 and be willing to go all in if somebody shoved in. This way I have just as good a chance to steal from the shortstacked blinds because they can't afford to call with bad hands and the other players to act are going to be worried that I might actually have a really premium hand and be uninclined to push me all in until I see a flop. Then they are either going to cold call with something good, fold something marginal, and put me all in with something premium. Yes, I'd be pretty much pot committed to the hand, but if I raise and somebody else pushes all in, the blinds will definitely get out of the way and leave us heads up. If I push and get called the blinds will be more likely to come in. TT plays very very poorly against more than one opponent and for this reason if there were a taker I would want him to have a chance to isolate me. Decent players have a lot more fear and respect for a smallish raise at that point in the game than a desperate push all in. And don't tell me to read it again like I haven't read it. There is T10,000 at the table and this guy has T1,500 - he's in fine shape agianst 4 opponents and should be trying to get in third place before he tries to win. It isn't like I'm suggesting he limps in or something. In this case I think folding TT UTG would be better than limping. And don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about - my NL tournament record is just peachy thanks and you've acknowledged that the worst part of your NL tourney game is playing on the bubble.
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Re: All in Pre-Flop v. Post Flop, shorn, 25. Jun 2003 13:49
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We agree on this one, but I am smelling some damage control in your household tonight... :)
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Re: All in Pre-Flop v. Post Flop, Wren, 25. Jun 2003 13:58
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on 25. Jun 2003 13:47 stdioh wrote: > Nope. I stick by what I am saying. It is late in the tourney and shoving all in here is an alarm bell which > screams that you are on a marginal raising hand like TT. Huh? And a raise of 700 says you have KK or AA? That doesn't make any sense. > I would put in a raise of probably 700 and be willing > to go all in if somebody shoved in. This way I have just as good a chance to steal from the shortstacked > blinds because they can't afford to call with bad hands and the other players to act are going to be worried > that I might actually have a really premium hand and be uninclined to push me all in until I see a flop. Yeah, and in this case, they are the ones drawing with their A-X or whatever, and they've been given a cheaper chance to catch a good flop. >Then they are either going to cold call with something good, fold something marginal, and put me all in with > something premium. Yes, I'd be pretty much pot committed to the hand, but if I raise and somebody else pushes > all in, the blinds will definitely get out of the way and leave us heads up. If I push and get called the > blinds will be more likely to come in. TT plays very very poorly against more than one opponent and for this All the more reason to get your whole stack in there for a big raise than piddle around with a small raise. > reason if there were a taker I would want him to have a chance to isolate me. >Decent players have a lot more > fear and respect for a smallish raise at that point in the game than a desperate push all in. With the blinds this big, these two situations essentially blur together. A smallish raise relative to the blinds is necessarily a big raise relative to your stack. Everyone's desperate. > > And don't tell me to read it again like I haven't read it. There is T10,000 at the table and this guy has > T1,500 - he's in fine shape agianst 4 opponents He's second smallest stack AND UTG. No he's not in "fine shape". >and should be trying to get in third place before he tries to > win. It isn't like I'm suggesting he limps in or something. In this case I think folding TT UTG would be > better than limping. They'd both be terrible. > > And don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about - my NL tournament record is just peachy thanks and > you've acknowledged that the worst part of your NL tourney game is playing on the bubble. That may be true, however I know an obvious move when I see one.
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Re: All in Pre-Flop v. Post Flop, stdioh, 25. Jun 2003 14:37
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Ugh. I'm sick of this argument and I'm quitting. It is pretty stupid considering that we're arguing about whether it is better to shove all in or make a smaller raise expecting to be reraised all in and then call.
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Re: All in Pre-Flop v. Post Flop, Wren, 25. Jun 2003 14:44
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Fair enough. The only reason I chirped in originally was because you pretty much told the guy that he was "maniacal" for making the move he did, and you really led me to believe that you didn't have an appreciation for all the situational factors. So at least we're now on the same wavelength that a raise is pretty much required here, and also that ANY raise has the guy pot committed. Ok, enuff :)
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Re: All in Pre-Flop v. Post Flop, stdioh, 25. Jun 2003 15:14
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Naw. I don't think tha the move was maniacal. I just think that a different sized bet would be a better idea. Ideally you want somebody with 66 to say, "ok - coinflip time" and reraise you all-in. My whole argument was that it is more likely to get that by making a smaller raise than it is to get that guy just calling you when you make a big raise. If you're up against the big pairs you're screwed just as badly either way, and we both agree that you have to play the hand, so it really becomes a quesion of betting in such a way as to attract as many worse hands than yours as possible if there are takers while still enticing players without anything to fold.
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Re: All in Pre-Flop v. Post Flop, gary ford, 25. Jun 2003 16:25
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laughing at steve's message--wondering if you 2 have broken up or are just fighting. Don't you have a phone? Wren you didnt answer my 2 questions???? Maybe studioh would like to answer them.It looks like any live game of UPF'ers would be full of fireworks. Interesting little family we've created. Gary
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Re: All in Pre-Flop v. Post Flop, palman, 25. Jun 2003 14:04
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Whats incredibly hilarious, is this EXACT situation happenned to me about an hour ago. I think I was next to UTG, 2nd to last in chips, (I had 1300, someone else had 1000, and another 1500) blinds 150/300, and I had TT Well I raised, everyone folded, ended up 2nd. I just laughed when I saw the situation.
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