|
||
|
||
|
Server Time: 11/21/2008 6:09:14 PM PACIFIC |
 Omaha hi/lo river question, PokerDude, 24. Jun 2003 02:17 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| I am starting to believe in this particular game, that it is a mistake to bet or raise before the river card. So many times i will have the nut flush on the turn, only to see the river pair the board, and a boat beat me. When it pairs, I simply check and call, unless I am certain of a boat(which i believe is often). I'm new to studying this game. Should I be wating for that last card before I go gung ho? Or is it positve expectation to bet aggressively with the nut flush on the turn? What are the odds, if no pair on the board on the turn, that the board will pair on the river? I am playing extra low limit(2 cent, 4 cent(lol)) online. I get to see the flop with no raise. Should I see every flop and only draw to the nuts from there? What kind of starting hands should I raise with, if at all? Thank you in advance, everyone, for your time. I have learned much from checking this site out. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Omaha hi/lo river question, MozMan, 24. Jun 2003 08:43 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| ok, let me first say that I have only recently started to dabble in Omaha, so I could be completely off-base and this might be the holdem player in me, but... I really believe that you need to get $$ in the pot anytime you think you have the best hand. If you get outdrawn, then those player payed to outdraw you, and when you don't get outdrawn those payments make it more worth it for the times you did... Anyhoo... that's my two cents... -Moz "Truly, you have a dizzying intellect." | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Omaha hi/lo river question, stdioh, 24. Jun 2003 09:07 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| I wouldn't say that. You need to get your money in the pot when you have a better chance of ending the hand with the nuts than your opponents. Thus if you hold the nut flush draw and a wrapper straight draw, you could have 18 outs to the nuts with 2 cards to come and be up against 4 opponents. Not only would you be calling here, but you would be correct to be jamming money in there. Likewise, if you're holding a nut straight with no redraws against a big field, the only way you'll win is if you hit two total bricks. Essentially you're on a backdoor garbage draw and those rarely work out. For instance, lets say the board comes 2d7dTc and you have TdTsAc3c you've got the top set which is currently the nuts. That said, it is a mathematical certainty that you will not hold the nuts at the end of the hand unless you hit a 1-outer to quads. The reason is that when there are 5 cards on the board there will be at least one of the following on board: a pair, a queen, a king, an ace, or a possible straight. Not only that, but you're facing a flush draw. You can be 100% certain that you currently hold the best hand - there are no other player out there with TT, but you can be certain that you are drawing to 1 out. Now if you make a tight there's a good chance that you'll still hold the best hand, since quads for another player are relatively rare, but you still have to worry about overpairs hitting to make a better tight or somebody holding the case T and an overcard hitting that. You've got the best hand at the moment, but it is a piece of junk that should be thrown away to heavy action. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Omaha hi/lo river question, TKarrde, 24. Jun 2003 11:51 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Throw it away?!?!? You are one card away from the nut low!! :) At least see the turn. TKarrde "You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never to get involved in a land war in Asia. And only slightly less well known is this: never go in against a Sicilian (Mozman) when death is on the line!" | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Omaha hi/lo river question, stdioh, 24. Jun 2003 13:00 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Good point. For my example to hold more water that 2 on board should really be a 4. The easy draw to nut low makes it ok to hang around with a high that will definitely be defeated. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Omaha hi/lo river question, stdioh, 24. Jun 2003 09:01 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| In Omaha 8, ever hand is a drawing hand. You need to balance not only the hand you hold, but the number of cards that stop you from having the nuts and any redraws you have to a better nuts. For instance, if you are holding 7h8sAs2c, it is a very marginal hand, but you decide to play it. Now the flop comes 4h5c6h. You're very happy because not only are you holding the nut low, but you're also holding the current nut straight. That said, there is a flush draw on board. Now you bet hard and see the turn which comes up Ac. Your hand is now garbage. Why? Well aside from your low being counterfeited, you are still holding the nut high, right? The problem is that there are going to be players holding draws to better straights and it is possible that somebody else also holds the nut high, you're only playing for half the pot anyway since your low is no good, and there are now 2 flush draws out there that you don't have a piece of. Any spade or club murders you, any card that pairs the board murders you, any 7 or 8 murders you, and even in the best case you're only going to win half the money. Are you holding the nuts? Yup. Are you likely to win? Maybe, but you aren't the giant favourite you'd be in a hold'em game. Now, here's another example hand. I held this in a friendly PLO8 game I was playing in a few weeks ago. I held AcKdKsQc. The flop came up 7cTdJc so I've got the nuts at the moment and the chance of a low is very slim (backdoor low draw) ... I'm a happy camper. I've also got an overpair which doesn't hurt any and I've got a backdoor flush draw which doesn't hurt any. I make a pot sized bet and get 2 callers. Now the turn is my magical card - it didn't improve my hand at all, but it did give me massive redraws. I turned the Kc. Now I'm holding the nut flush draw, top set, Broadway, and I've even got 1 out to a royal flush. Thus, there are only 2 outs that have a chance of beating me and that is a slim chance. The only way I can lose is to river a 7 or a T and be beat by quads. Now I make a very comfortable pot bet and pray that I'll be raised. What I'm hoping for here is that somebody else is holding the current nuts and that they'll try to get all in with me and then I'll have a shot at rivering them. In the worst case, I get half and make money on the hand, but in the best case I take it all and the opponent can moan about losing on the river. Playing omaha means having outs. You generally need to have the nuts or second nuts to win, but that doesn't mean that you can expect to flop the non-eternal nuts and keep it that way. Without redraws you're more often than not toast. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Omaha hi/lo river question, TKarrde, 24. Jun 2003 11:59 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Now I > make a very comfortable pot bet and pray that I'll be raised. What I'm hoping for > here is that somebody else is holding the current nuts and that they'll try to get > all in with me and then I'll have a shot at rivering them. In the worst case, I get > half and make money on the hand, but in the best case I take it all and the opponent > can moan about losing on the river. I'm confused how can someone else be holding the current nuts if you have the Ac? How can you split this pot? TKarrde "You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never to get involved in a land war in Asia. And only slightly less well known is this: never go in against a Sicilian (Mozman) when death is on the line!" | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Omaha hi/lo river question, stdioh, 24. Jun 2003 13:02 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Aiyah - my brain is gone today. Board only started with one club. The long and short was that on the river the nuts was the straight to broadway and there was a backdoor flush draw coming in when the Kc showed up. Sorry about the sloppy storytelling. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Omaha hi/lo river question, PokerDude, 24. Jun 2003 13:05 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| i'm not familiar with the term 'broadway' could someone clarify this so i can impress my friends? lol thank you =) "TIMMMAAAY" - Timmy | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Omaha hi/lo river question, stdioh, 24. Jun 2003 13:15 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| The straight to the ace is often referred to as Broadway. Also in this category, I'm sure that you've heard of the wheel being A2345 - when it is suited, making the smallest straight flush, you can call it the steel wheel. This might also impress your friends. Also, bring a gun to the games and pull it out when somebody knocks on the door. Carry a wad of at least $10,000 even if you are just playing for nickels and dimes. Wear shirts with really big collars. Bark from time to time for no good reason. heheheheh :) | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Omaha hi/lo river question, PokerDude, 24. Jun 2003 13:24 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| lmao thanks for the laugh i don't do much barking, but i do like to slap myself every once in awhile. I like the one-liners too "I haven't had this much crap in my hands since i ran out of toilet paper" -me | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Omaha hi/lo river question, TKarrde, 24. Jun 2003 13:18 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Ok, that makes much more sense. Yet (as KGB would put it) I feel so "un-satis-fied". You didn't say how that hand ended. Did you hit any of your outs? TKarrde "You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never to get involved in a land war in Asia. And only slightly less well known is this: never go in against a Sicilian (Mozman) when death is on the line!" | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Omaha hi/lo river question, stdioh, 25. Jun 2003 08:41 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| I don't remember. I bet pot and one opponent folded - the other called on a big dead draw and I didn't bother to look at the last card since there was mathematically no way I could lose. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Omaha hi/lo river question, plizak, 2. Jul 2003 07:24 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| 7 came on the river, I had the set of tens and broadway as well. So stdioh got the higher full, and I mucked. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Omaha hi/lo river question, Snorbolus, 24. Jun 2003 13:00 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Stdioh, I must be missing something here: > Now, here's another example hand. I held this in a friendly PLO8 game I was playing > in a few weeks ago. I held AcKdKsQc. The flop came up 7cTdJc so I've got the nuts at > the moment.... What are the nuts that you have? What about 9c,8c, x,x (esp if one of the x's is 10c), or J,J,x,x; T,T,x,x; 7,7,x,x. You have plenty of nut outs but all that I can see on the flop is an overpair. Snorbolus | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Omaha hi/lo river question, stdioh, 24. Jun 2003 13:04 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Sorry. Like I said, the board only started with 1 club. I had a big brain fart this morning or something. Board started as 7TJ rainbow including a club. I started with a nut straight tripple draw which got there when the king hit the turn. That turn also brought the top set and the nut flush draw, along with a 1-out straight flush draw. Now excuse me while I beat my head against my desk. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Omaha hi/lo river question, shorn, 24. Jun 2003 13:31 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| on 24. Jun 2003 09:01 stdioh wrote: > Now, here's another example hand. I held this in a friendly PLO8 game I was playing > in a few weeks ago. I held AcKdKsQc. The flop came up 7cTdJc so I've got the nuts at > the moment I am confused as to how you have the nuts on thre flop with your hand. Nuts is 98c unless I am reading it wrong. Dude, u need to get some shut eye... | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Omaha hi/lo river question, stdioh, 25. Jun 2003 08:42 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Yes, I made a mistake. Sorry - was a zombie yesterday. Nevermind. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Omaha hi/lo river question, Andrew Wells, 24. Jun 2003 09:55 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| You can reraise preflop to try and get better position for the rest of the hand. You can raise on the flop with huge multiway nut draws for value. You can raise on the turn with the nuts for one side, and a redraw to a better nut hand or something decent for the other side. You can raise with an uncounterfeitable nut low hand if you are against three or more opponents. Many players raise too much with an A2 in their hand. Experienced Omaha-8 players have seen enough of their nut low only hands get quartered or worse, and also get robbed by a deuce on the river. In that case it is often better to just call along, when you have no chances for the high side. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Omaha hi/lo river question, stdioh, 24. Jun 2003 13:06 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Yes, but there are a lot of A2 hands that are raising material preflop. All A23 hands can be raised, depending on position. A suited ace makes the hand raiseable. Something like A2KK double suited is just masterfully good. When people raise with A29Q rainbow then they are making a big mistake. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Omaha hi/lo river question, Andrew Wells, 24. Jun 2003 18:39 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| I was inferring just an A2. The point is of course (as you're well aware) that hands containing an A2 are notoriously overplayed. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Omaha hi/lo river question, stdioh, 25. Jun 2003 08:42 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| I agree. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Omaha hi/lo river question, PokerDude, 25. Jun 2003 11:33 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| can you give me a few examples to think about when A2 isn't playable? Officially Licensed Dude | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Omaha hi/lo river question, stdioh, 25. Jun 2003 12:08 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| A299 rainbow is a terrible hand. If there is no low, you have garbage and if there is a low you still have virtually no shot at the high end of it. The only way you can win the high without extreme luck is to hit your set and tighten up in which case you'll most likely lose to a better tight. It is something that you could still think about limping with in late position after a lot of limpers to see if you can flop a good draw to the nut low or something, but you shouldn't be pressing it by any stretch of the imagination. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Omaha hi/lo river question, Andrew Wells, 25. Jun 2003 12:23 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| When it looks like you will only get 1/4 of the pot against two opponents that are jamming each other on the turn. When it is raised and reraised before it gets to you preflop, and you don't have another wheel card or your ace suited. On the river due to the nature of the game (there are few truly small pots at low limit), holding the nut low when I knew two players were going to cap it, it would be hard to find a situation where I would give up. I suppose it is correct in theory to do so when you are sure you are going to get quartered, and know the action is going to get capped. However, this knowledge must have come by way of raising on the flop and/or turn. Therefore the pot is going to be big enough to let yourself get half the low. Suppose it's 5-10 Omaha-8 and you can see that you're going to be puting in $40 on the river which will (if you have to split the nut low with one of the other two players) then make the pot $160. With two opponents, there must have been only $40 in the pot on the turn. With a pot that small, there's almost no way you can be that sure someone else has your low side tied. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Omaha hi/lo river question, stdioh, 25. Jun 2003 13:50 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| You've definitely got to throw away your nut low on the turn if you are getting squeezed like that and have no shot at the high. Not only are you likely to get quartered in the best of situations, but if you get counterfeited then you'll likely get nothing. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| POKER FORUM HOME | POKER FORUM | LINK TO US | ARCHIVE | ONLINE POKER | Copyright 2002, United Poker Forum |
|
Getting Started |
UPF Tournaments |
Poker News, Views, Rules |
Poker Strategy & Psychology |
Money and Bankroll Poker Bonuses & Promotions | World Series of Poker (WSOP) | Play Online Poker | Poker Odds & Statistics | Tournament Poker | Poker Books, Videos & Learning Tools Looking for a Poker Game | Poker Bad Beats | Not Quite Poker | Quizzes and Polls | Forum Suggestions & Bugs |
|
|
|
|
Interesting Links: Online Poker | Free Poker Games | United Poker Network |
|