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Server Time: 9/5/2008 4:54:42 PM PACIFIC |
 What is your approach to this?, mongi, 23. Jun 2003 12:22 | ||
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| I was playing in a very tight aggressive game ( I am on the list for a table change) The type of game where we were chopping every other hand and very few multiway pots. I get pocket jj on the button and raise ( my image is tight aggressive as well). I am shocked to see six people sticking around for the flop. The flop comes Qd Tc 2h. Everyone checks to me. I checked, knowing these guys don't limp in with junk. I suspect someone has a queen and they are just checking to the raiser. my question: should I have bet, obviously if no one has a queen then my jacks need protection; I need to get out overcards and gutshots. If my bet gets called in a couple places as it would have here and they check to me again do I fire another shot, assuming a blank comes on the turn. As it turned out I would have lost either way. A 9 hit the river and the utg player holding KJ won with a straight so he wasn't going anywhere. The other guy held QJ. By the way, on the turn the utg bet, the other guy called, I called ( not sure how correct this call was). I ended up folding on the river after a bet and call. So what would you do. I am wondering what the best course of action is in situations where you may or may not have the best hand. I am thinking, I should bet the flop and if a blank comes on the turn grit my teethe and bet again and hope for a free showdown. | ||
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| Re: What is your approach to this?, shorn, 23. Jun 2003 12:41 | ||
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| I wouldn't lead into 6 players with the type of table you describe. There is little chance of JJ taking it down right there and you are most likely behind. I take the free card on the turn and if it is a J or a 9 giving you the outside draw, I stay, but otherwise i muck the turn. You did one thing right though...put your name on the list for an easier game! | ||
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| Re: What is your approach to this?, Mark, 23. Jun 2003 13:08 | ||
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| i would have bet the flop. You showed strength pre-flop, why not come out again. You may get top pair weak kickers to fold, figuring you for over cards or AQ. Also, you are giving players with nothing free draws. You need to protect your hand. Why bother raising pre-flop if your not going to bet against 1 overcard? Mark | ||
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| Re: What is your approach to this?, Big_Slick, 23. Jun 2003 13:16 | ||
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| Shorn is right... you are probably second best with your pocket jacks against 6 callers. You should check and then fold if someone bets. Mark is missing the point.. you don't a hand to protect here. You are at a huge disadvantage. You might have had the best hand pre-flop but not anymore. Not against 6 callers. A bet here has no chance of winning the pot. The only thing a bet is going to accomplish is costing you money. You are either going to get raised or taken along for the ride which gets more expensive on the turn. Either way, it's bad poker. Since the board is coordinated, you could easily be up against straight draws. Moreover, your 2 biggest outs (being the other 2 jacks) fills in someone's straight draw which means tragedy for you. | ||
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| Re: What is your approach to this?, stdioh, 24. Jun 2003 09:50 | ||
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| That really depends on the opposition. If they are such rocks that the blinds are getting chopped every second hand, then it is possible to push them off top pair if a scare card comes on the turn and likewise, it is possible to take it down on the flop. | ||
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| Re: What is your approach to this?, shorn, 23. Jun 2003 13:36 | ||
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| One other thing...I am assuming that there were 4 callers before you and the blinds called. You shouldn't be shocked to see these callers call one extra bet (your raise) after calling the first bet. Generally, they are getting odds to do so. I definitely agree with the raise on the button pre-flop...build the pot so if you flop your set you win a biggie. But, I really have to go with Slick here and not Mark...you can't lead into that flop with JJ. When someone raises, then what do you do? If it were two opponents, maybe, but no way with 6. Check the flop, see if you improve on the turn and if not you will likely have to fold to any bet. | ||
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| Re: What is your approach to this?, stdioh, 24. Jun 2003 09:51 | ||
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| Indeed, against these rocks you probably shouldn't be raising your JJ. You're not going to fold off the limpers and there's really nobody but the blinds to chase out, so it may be correct preflop just to call and play them like 77 ... that is try to hit a set. ... or an overpair. | ||
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| Re: What is your approach to this?, Roy Cooke, 23. Jun 2003 14:13 | ||
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| Hell yes I bet...With that much money in the pot I don't want to ever give a free card in case I had the best hand....As the pots get bigger saving bets becomes less important and improving your chances to win the pot become more important. Roy Cooke on 23. Jun 2003 12:22 mongi wrote: > I was playing in a very tight aggressive game ( I am on the list for a table > change) The type of game where we were chopping every other hand and very few > multiway pots. I get pocket jj on the button and raise ( my image is tight > aggressive as well). I am shocked to see six people sticking around for the > flop. > > The flop comes Qd Tc 2h. Everyone checks to me. I checked, knowing these guys > don't limp in with junk. I suspect someone has a queen and they are just > checking to the raiser. > > my question: should I have bet, obviously if no one has a queen then my jacks > need protection; I need to get out overcards and gutshots. If my bet gets called > in a couple places as it would have here and they check to me again do I fire > another shot, assuming a blank comes on the turn. > > As it turned out I would have lost either way. A 9 hit the river and the utg > player holding KJ won with a straight so he wasn't going anywhere. The other guy > held QJ. > > By the way, on the turn the utg bet, the other guy called, I called ( not sure > how correct this call was). I ended up folding on the river after a bet and > call. > > So what would you do. I am wondering what the best course of action is in > situations where you may or may not have the best hand. I am thinking, I should > bet the flop and if a blank comes on the turn grit my teethe and bet again and > hope for a free showdown. | ||
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| Re: What is your approach to this?, Big_Slick, 23. Jun 2003 15:01 | ||
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| Wow... that surprises me. It seems to me that anyone who bets here is playing catch up. The way I see it, with 6 people in the pot, you have 2 outs (jack-jack). And and I already mentioned, a jack could be disastrous for you if someone is playing a straight draw. Moreover, there is still a backdoor flush chance for the truest maniacs. | ||
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| Re: What is your approach to this?(For Roy and others who think u should bet), shorn, 24. Jun 2003 04:50 | ||
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| Roy- I really respect your opinion and agree with your thought process 90-95% of the time on subjects that you discuss here and in your articles. However, I am dumbfounded by this one. With this being a tight agressive game with 6 callers, don't you have a significant "schooling" effect in play that, even if you are ahead at this point, the chances of you being ahead at the river are quite small? I think so. If you bet into this board, the pot will be laying 13:1 to anyone who doesn't have a queen. So, this is a no brainer call for AK, KJ, AJ as well as anyone who holds a T or a 2. My thought is that there is a 0% chance that betting will win you the pot right there, so semi-bluffing (which IMO is what you are doing here) is not worth it because you don't have the extra chance that everypone will fold. So, the chances are high that in betting, you will be taking the worst of it. I would think it is better to check to the turn and if it is a blank, then bet out to make any drawers who want to hang around make the mistake of calling with bad odds (8:1 for all those gutters). Add to that the fact that anyone with AQ is either going to just smoothcall a flop bet of check raise you and I just don't think the bet is worht it. I agree that when the pot is big, your best bet is to try and win it ASAP. However, the chances of doing this with such a large field and 2 cards in the playing zone on the flop or non-existent. However, as I said at the top I really respect your opnion, so I would love to hear you extrapolate on your thoughts a bit more. Thanks in advance. Steve | ||
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| Re: What is your approach to this?(For Roy and others who think u should bet), Roy Cooke, 24. Jun 2003 05:14 | ||
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| Hi Steve Yes, your opponents are getting 13-1 on a call....But what odds are they getting on a check by you? Aren't you giving them infinite odds? Just because someone is correct in calling you doesn't mean you should give them the card for free! I agree there is almost 0% chance of you winning the pot on the flop with a bet. But you want to charge people to draw if your hand is good and fold hands that may fold to a bet that could beat you (Like 44 or backdoor draws)....I understand JJ may not be good, but the pot is big and well worth taking some risks to improve your chances to win.....In big pots improving your chances to win it....even by a small amount has good value. Roy Cooke n 24. Jun 2003 04:50 shorn wrote: > Roy- > > I really respect your opinion and agree with your thought process 90-95% of the time on > subjects that you discuss here and in your articles. However, I am dumbfounded by this > one. With this being a tight agressive game with 6 callers, don't you have a significant > "schooling" effect in play that, even if you are ahead at this point, the chances of you > being ahead at the river are quite small? I think so. > > If you bet into this board, the pot will be laying 13:1 to anyone who doesn't have a > queen. So, this is a no brainer call for AK, KJ, AJ as well as anyone who holds a T or a > 2. My thought is that there is a 0% chance that betting will win you the pot right there, > so semi-bluffing (which IMO is what you are doing here) is not worth it because you don't > have the extra chance that everypone will fold. So, the chances are high that in betting, > you will be taking the worst of it. I would think it is better to check to the turn and > if it is a blank, then bet out to make any drawers who want to hang around make the > mistake of calling with bad odds (8:1 for all those gutters). Add to that the fact that > anyone with AQ is either going to just smoothcall a flop bet of check raise you and I just > don't think the bet is worht it. > > I agree that when the pot is big, your best bet is to try and win it ASAP. However, the > chances of doing this with such a large field and 2 cards in the playing zone on the flop > or non-existent. However, as I said at the top I really respect your opnion, so I would > love to hear you extrapolate on your thoughts a bit more. > > Thanks in advance. > > Steve | ||
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| Re: What is your approach to this?(For Roy and others who think u should bet), shorn, 24. Jun 2003 05:32 | ||
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| Roy- OK. I agree on not giving infinite odds to opponents in most cases, but I really think this hand is a money loser long run if you bet it out. Assuming there is no flush draw, you have 20 cards left in the deck that you can consider clean (any 3,4,5,6 or 7) and 27 cards that (assuming you are ahead and no one has a Q) could hurt you. Of these 27 cards, only an 8 is marginally unlikely to hurt you as the chances of someone holding J9 at a tight table are smaller, given the fact that you also hold two of the Jacks. So, the way I see it, you have 20/47 "clean" cards on the turn and 19/46 on the river, roughly 41.5% of the remaining deck. This tells me that I am an underdog to draw clean cards to win the pot. I don't think a Jack helps you other than to give you outs on the river to hit a boat. Since I am an underdog to draw to the winning hand AND I might also be behind already, why effectively donate more to the pot on a hand that will turn out a loser more often than a winner? I just don't see it with the size of the field. I still think the most optimal play is to save a bet (or two if someone CR's) here and if no one improves on the turn, then bet your Jacks and make them draw with the worst of it. | ||
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| Re: What is your approach to this?(For Roy and others who think u should bet), Mark, 24. Jun 2003 08:50 | ||
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| Shorn, I think you are giving up too much by not betting. By betting you have a chance to win the pot, but by checking, you are essentially giving up any hope at winning. Also, as i said earlier, your raise pre-flop represents a big hand so if you bet the flop, you are still representing something good. By checking, you are announcing that your weak, and any aware player may bet an underpair or draw on the turn. Checking is a weak play and does not fall in line with the tight-aggressive play everyone teaches mark | ||
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| Re: What is your approach to this?(For Roy and others who think u should bet), shorn, 24. Jun 2003 09:03 | ||
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| Perhaps it is a question of the limit we are talking about. You might be giving up too much by not betting at 10-20 where players will be cognizant of your play and assume you are betting the flop with AQ after your raise. But, in 5-10 and below, I don't think there is any chance JJ will win this pot with 6 other players. So, if checking is giving up then I think it is the right play in this circumstance. I know that Roy plays 30-60 and above and I assume that you play relatively high limit as well. Maybe that is where the difference comes in. | ||
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| Re: What is your approach to this?(For Roy and others who think u should bet), stdioh, 24. Jun 2003 10:00 | ||
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| Yes, but in a 5-10 and below you're not going to be chopping every second hand either - and if you are, then it is playing like a tight as hell 50-100 and you may as well play the same way. | ||
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| Re: What is your approach to this?(For Roy and others who think u should bet), Snorbolus, 24. Jun 2003 10:09 | ||
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| I tend to agree more with Shorn and Slick here. At the limits I play ($4-8 mostly), people check to the pre-flop raiser all the time, but they are very reluctant to fold to a bet. With so many others still in I would feel sure that I was betting somebody else's hand for them. Also, I would be concerned that somebody with a queen would be sufficently worried that I had kings or aces to check-call again on turn and river but not convinced enough to overcome their desire to call me down. I woud be most inclined to take the free card and fold to a bet on the turn. I just can't see jacks being good here enough to justify putting more money in, especially as betting won't yield much information. Snorbolus on 24. Jun 2003 09:03 shorn wrote: > Perhaps it is a question of the limit we are talking about. You might be giving up too much by not betting at > 10-20 where players will be cognizant of your play and assume you are betting the flop with AQ after your > raise. But, in 5-10 and below, I don't think there is any chance JJ will win this pot with 6 other players. > So, if checking is giving up then I think it is the right play in this circumstance. > > I know that Roy plays 30-60 and above and I assume that you play relatively high limit as well. Maybe that > is where the difference comes in. | ||
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| Re: What is your approach to this?(For Roy and others who think u should bet), stdioh, 24. Jun 2003 09:58 | ||
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| I think you're missing one key piece of information and that is the psychological environment in a rock's brain. Here the guys who limped are saying, "I'll pay one bet with my QKo - I can afford to call with it if somebody raises." Now when you raise the rock says, "Oh oh - I'm in trouble - he's got AA or KK." Now when you don't bet the flop you make it harder to bet the turn for a steal because you lose credibility, but when the rock thinks you're on AA or KK and the flop gives him top pair second kicker, he may just fold to your flop bet - or if unimproved, to your turn bet. Yes, you can take down pots like that - not at a calling-station-filled 5-10, but at a rockpile like the one described, it happens all the time. | ||
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| Re: What is your approach to this?(For Roy and others who think u should bet), Snorbolus, 25. Jun 2003 11:01 | ||
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| Sorry to bang on about this again, but I am still not clear about the case for betting. Most of the posters who are in favor of betting seem to be suggesting that it is correct because of the chance that you might pick up the pot right there. However, Roy makes a case for betting even though he believes there is almost 0% chance of picking up the pot right there. I certianly agree that there is essentially no chance of picking up the pot right there with a bet, but I don't follow the arguement for beting anyway. Presumably he believes that the Jacks will be and remain the best hand sufficiently often to pay for at least 3 extra small bets (it is hard to believe that you would get to a showdown without paying at least one more big bet on either the turn or river - except for those times that your jacks were good), all the times that they either are not best on the folp or get drawn out on. I still find this hard to believe. Roy, is that what you are saying? If so (or even if not) please explain more because I don't see it and I could be making a mistake in this type of situation. Snorbolus on 24. Jun 2003 05:14 Roy Cooke wrote: > Hi Steve.......... > I agree there is almost 0% chance of you winning the pot on the flop with a bet. But you want > to charge people to draw if your hand is good and fold hands that may fold to a bet that could > beat you (Like 44 or backdoor draws)....I understand JJ may not be good, but the pot is big and ......... | ||
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| Re: What is your approach to this?(For Roy and others who think u should bet), shorn, 25. Jun 2003 11:35 | ||
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| I am definitely with you. Betting will never win the pot right there and there is no chance (even if two blanks come) that you won't at least have to pay off a bet at the river to get to the showdown. So, the way I see it your implied odds on the flop are at best 15:3, or 5 to 1. I GUARANTEE you DO NOT win this specific situation 17% of the time, so betting is a -EV play without a doubt (at least in my mind). Steve | ||
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| Re: What is your approach to this?(For Roy and others who think u should bet), stdioh, 25. Jun 2003 12:12 | ||
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| First off, believe it or not, it is possible (and I acknowledge unlikely) that you have the best hand right now. There are 3 more queens in the deck and they don't have to be in somebody's hand. Especially since we had limpers and tight players rarely limp with a queen as it is usually in a raising hand or a folding hand. Now when you bet you are not expecting to win, but that doesn't mean that you won't. What happens if you get one caller and everybody else folds because they figure that one of the two of you has to be good? What happens when the caller was on a draw? I wouldn't go so far as to say that checking here is a mistake, but I certainly defend Roy's stance that he would always bet there. I would too. | ||
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| Re: What is your approach to this?(For Roy and others who think u should bet), shorn, 25. Jun 2003 12:30 | ||
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| OK. Fire away. I will sav my $$ for a positive EV play. | ||
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| Re: What is your approach to this?(For Roy and others who think u should bet), stdioh, 25. Jun 2003 13:51 | ||
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| Ouch. That was scathing. | ||
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| Re: What is your approach to this?(For Roy and others who think u should bet), shorn, 25. Jun 2003 13:52 | ||
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| Sorry dude... | ||
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| Re: What is your approach to this?, Scrubbie, 23. Jun 2003 14:26 | ||
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| With two overcards on the table, and 6 players, you might as well have Eights! You are going to need to hit your set, or runner-runner to win. That said, would you have bet with pocket Eights??? Heck no! I have to agree with "shorn" and "Slick" on this one. Get to the river as cheap as possible and hope to improve. 'Cause your Eights (oh, sorry, Jacks) aren't going to be good enough for a showdown. Scrubbie "Smile, things can only get worse" | ||
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| Re: What is your approach to this?, stdioh, 24. Jun 2003 10:03 | ||
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| Well, I wouldn't be raising the 88 preflop here, so the situation doesn't make sense. But lets say that I had a small stroke and threw in a raise at this particular table with 88 in this position and exactly the same transpired. Now there are more jacks available to make straights out of and it is more likely that somebody will have a hand like JK or J9. All of a sudden there are a lot mor overcards to my pair than can hit and there are a lot more legitimate draws that are possible. Thus the chances of having the best hand at the end go down *and* the chances of making a successful bluff go down. I could see betting with 8's here as not being totally unreasonable if you somehow found that you had raised them preflop, but I wouldn't. With JJ though I would almost certainly bet here. | ||
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| Re: What is your approach to this?, noiseboy, 23. Jun 2003 16:28 | ||
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| With that many players, I don't think your JJ's are any good with the overcard. With fewer players, I would definitely bet if it was checked to me. The problem with betting into the large field is that if someone has a Q-weak kicker, their likely play is to check raise to thin the field. If you play into that, and their play succeeds, you may find your self calling two bets and ending heads up or three-way with only two outs to beat the higher pair, keeping in mind that another Q is just as likely as another J. Sure the pot odds are good at this point, but are they good enough to call a double bet, assuming a raise, to spike the set? If these are tight players, that means they play mostly big cards especially when they call a raise, so I think you have to give someone the queen. In this case, if you took the free card and spiked the J, you would be paid off well by the guy with Q who probably wouldn't get away from the hand. Also, if you bet and the turn is a straight or flush card, you know you have to fold. | ||
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| Re: What is your approach to this?, stdioh, 24. Jun 2003 10:06 | ||
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| No. That is precisely incorrect. You're playing in a total rockpile. You can't fear the checkraise from rocks. If somebody checkraises you then you fold - absolutely without question. Rocks will not checkraise you with AQ here though. They'll likely just check call with it and if they are a shade of solid they might bet it out. Being a rock means being passive as well as being weak. A rock here will bet out with AA, KK, or 2 pair+ and *maybe* would consider checkraising with QQ. What you're afraid of is being called. | ||
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| Re: What is your approach to this?, stdioh, 24. Jun 2003 09:48 | ||
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| You are left with an interesting dilemma here. You've got your JJ and you're up against a bunch of rocks who limped. They can't all be holding AK, so what gives? Well, I'd say that if you bet the hand and get called you are going to lose. If you don't bet the hand you're just going to have to face the same decision on the turn or somebody will bet, you'll fold, and you'll lose. Or you'll hit your 2-outer, but not be paid off for it. Here, I would bet and see if I could take it now. If I get raised or checkraised, I'll fold it there and then. If I get a caller then there is a chance that I'll bet the turn and try to take it, but I'll probably run away like a little girl with a skinned knee. If I bet the flop and got a caller I would assume that the caller was likely on a queen and possibly on AQ or KQ. Now if the turn comes up junk I'm not putting in any more money and if I get bet to I'm not putting in any more money, but if the turn is a K or A or if it pairs one of the low board cards then I'll try to knock the rock off his hand. Again if I am raised or checkraised, I'm history and if I'm called then I know I'm drawing to 2 outs still. I'll fold the river to a bet from a rock here too, even if I've bet the flop and turn. | ||
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| Re: What is your approach to this?, shorn, 24. Jun 2003 10:30 | ||
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| Even after much thought and re-reading all of the posts, I still have to disagree with betting. It is not that you are against only 1 or 2 rocks BUT SIX. When does the size of the field influence what you should do. If you would most likely fold to a bet from one of the players (except maybe the cutoff because you could raise to knock out the rest of the field and get heads up), then why the hell bet? I firmly believe that in this game situation and with the board that came, your JJ will be a loser more than 70% of the time (as it was in this hand). Personally, i will save my $$ for a better hand. | ||
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| Re: What is your approach to this?, Schuster, 24. Jun 2003 10:53 | ||
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| But there's 12 small bets in the pot. If you're saying your jacks are the best hand 30% of the time, then a bet is warranted to see if you can take it down right there. Given the table texture, I would have made the bet. It's possible that no one has that queen. I'd make the bet and see what happens on a table like this. Lee | ||
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| Re: What is your approach to this?, shorn, 24. Jun 2003 11:14 | ||
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| I disagree. There is no way that every one of the limpers will fold to that flop and there is a good chance that you will be raised by someone who limped with KQ or KJ, hands that you are either a huge underdog to, or those which you are just a sligh favorite over. The size of the pot has nothing to do with it at this point because there are just too many limpers for you to actually think that your underpair is good. | ||
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| Re: What is your approach to this?, stdioh, 25. Jun 2003 08:51 | ||
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| Sure there is - in the very rare example of this table. Like schuster said, it only needs to work 1/12 times. | ||
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| Re: What is your approach to this?, shorn, 25. Jun 2003 09:09 | ||
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| If you read the actual example, it wouldn't have worked because someone with KJ hit the 9 in the river and he wouldn' have folded to your semi-bluff flop bet, as I would have suspected. | ||
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| Re: What is your approach to this?, stdioh, 25. Jun 2003 10:33 | ||
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| Results are irrelevant. Correct play is all that matters. In this case, I would have made the bet and then been very afraid to get called - I'm not saying that making the bet wins you the hand most of the time - just that there is enough money there that you only need to win when you pull this move a small amount of the time. | ||
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| Re: What is your approach to this?, shorn, 25. Jun 2003 11:31 | ||
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| And what I am saying is that you arent going to win it once in 13 times so it is a -EV play. Just my opinion... | ||
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| Re: What is your approach to this?, stdioh, 25. Jun 2003 12:16 | ||
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| For starters, you'll hit a third jack more than one time in 12. That will often be good against somebody with a queen and when it is, you'll be glad you bet and folded off those that would have made a straight when the jack hit the board. Believe it or not, there are times when the players will fold. There are times when your jacks will be the best hand too. Is it worth much to bet here? No. But it isn't a mistake to do so. | ||
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| Re: What is your approach to this?, Scrubbie, 24. Jun 2003 12:56 | ||
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| I love all the feedback and different directions everyone takes in this situation. I like the arguments that "Stdioh" and "Roy" make here. I different approach then I would have taken. ('Course maybe that's because I am one of those Rocks at the table!) I have definitely learned one important concept here ... Don't have a small stroke at the table in middle position! *ha,ha,ha* Scrubbie "Smile, things can only get worse" | ||
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| Re: What is your approach to this?, mongi, 25. Jun 2003 13:27 | ||
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| These are some great comments. I believe that in situations like these it comes down to putting them on a hand as well as figuring out what they think you have. Their is no doubt that they had respect for my raise so they would probably put me on AQ or big pocket pair if I had bet the flop. The guy who was open ended would call for sure and I suspect the guy with the queen weak kicker would to, however, some tight weak players would muck their weak queen. If they both called I would see what came off on the turn. If the turn was an Ace and they checked to me I would fire again. In this situation I would have been checked raised by the guy with KJ and of course I would have mucked. But what if the under the gun had a different draw which wasn't filled by the ace. He may still call but I believe it would be a tough choice for the guy with Queen weak kicker to stay;I would probably muck it (I would have probably bet it on the flop to see were I was at). Both sides of this debate make great points. Betting gives you a better chance to win, not betting may save you money in a -EV situation. In this situation I knew the utg would have bet the Queen on the flop if he had it or check-raised me. He wouldn't come in with anything less than KQ or possibly QJ suited. I knew that if the other guy had a big Queen he would have raised before the flop.I believe a bet on the flop would give me the information I need to appropriately proceed with this hand. Thanks for your comments. | ||
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| Re: What is your approach to this?, shorn, 25. Jun 2003 13:42 | ||
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| I don't think you need to bet on the flop to get more information. You can assume two things without costing u a dime: (1) you are already behind and are potentially drawing dead to two Jacks, or (2) you are ahead, but the schooling effect is such that putting more money in the pot is a losing proposition. Rocks or no, there is an overcard and there are two cards in the playing zone and a semi-bluff will never win you this pot and is likely to cost you two bets to see the turn. I agree with Roy and stdioh that by betting you may very well fold off a very weak Queen and any pair under T. But because the game is tight agressive, do you really think a Q weaker than QT is even in the pot? I don't. So, lMHO the only hope you have of winning this pot is to check all the way to the river and maybe you will get two perfect cards and no one has a Queen. As I asked stdioh, please give me 6 hands that tight aggressive players would limp with in EP and MP, NONE of which beat you or will have great odds to call you where you are taking the worst of it. There aren't 6. | ||
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| Re: What is your approach to this?, stdioh, 25. Jun 2003 13:53 | ||
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| 99, 99, AK, AK, AK, AK :P | ||
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| Re: What is your approach to this?, Snorbolus, 25. Jun 2003 14:09 | ||
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| Four tight agressive players all decide limp with AK? on 25. Jun 2003 13:53 stdioh wrote: > 99, 99, AK, AK, AK, AK :P | ||
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| Re: What is your approach to this?, stdioh, 25. Jun 2003 14:38 | ||
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| They aren't agressive - they are rocks. That means tight, passive, and weak. If they were agressive the blinds would be getting stolen. | ||
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| Re: What is your approach to this?, stdioh, 25. Jun 2003 14:39 | ||
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| And anyway, you just said that there were not 4 hand that they could have and I'm pointing out that this isn't true. | ||
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| Re: What is your approach to this?, Snorbolus, 25. Jun 2003 15:58 | ||
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| I don't want to be a dick about this, indeed I accept that betting may be a good play and it's just that I don't understand why. Nevertheless, I feel compelled to point out two things: (1) the first sentence in Mongi's original post began "I was playing in a very tight aggressive game" (2) I didn't say anyting about there not being 6, or even 4 hands they could have had. That was Shorn (although, as it happens, I do agree with him on that point). Just busting your chops really ;-) Snorbolus on 25. Jun 2003 14:39 stdioh wrote: > And anyway, you just said that there were not 4 hand that they could have and I'm pointing out that this isn't > true. | ||
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| Re: What is your approach to this?, shorn, 25. Jun 2003 16:35 | ||
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| Snorlbus- I was the dick...and it was 6 hands. | ||
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