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Server Time: 11/21/2008 5:52:09 PM PACIFIC |
 Hand question, Schuster, 21. Jun 2003 20:58 | ||
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| I'm in the big blind with Jh 4h. One early player, 2 middle players, the cutoff and the button all call the blind and I see a free flop. It comes: Kd Js 4s Bottom 2 pair with a flush draw around. I check with the intention of raising. It's checked to the cutoff who bets, the button folds, I raise, a middle player (a "bad bad poker player" that occasionally makes a tricky, although rarely good play) and the cutoff call. The turn is the 8s to complete the spade flush. I bet here to avoid giving a free four flush, and I wouldn't have odds to call a bet to try to fill (7 to 1 to call a bet, 9 to 1 if he raises my bet, either way I would probably have to fold to any aggression). Only the middle player calls. The river is the 2s, completing the 4 flush. My options are to check and hope he checks it down or bluffs, or to try to represent a spade, which I thought might be reasonable considering the checkraise on the flop might have contained the Ks. I chose to check, because I would hate to bet and get bluff raised out of the pot, something I've seen this player do before. He bets, I call, and he has the trump ace (and sadly enough for me, literally nothing else. He had no business being in the pot from before the flop, but it happens). How do you play your good but not so good anymore hand on the river when a 4th suited card comes? How does your play vary depending on the number of opponents in the pot with you? I think I did everything right up to the river. Obviously, whether I check/call or bet, I lose a bet in this situation, but if he didn't have the ace, then it's a whole different ballgame. Lee | ||
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| Re: Hand question, Guru, 22. Jun 2003 09:19 | ||
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| Sorry, this reply won't help you, but I have problems with the same situation. After I've shown aggression the whole hand, checking on the river is just going to induce others to bet at you, even with a bluff, because it looks like you were on a drawing hand that missed. If they bet strongly, you really don't have the option of calling, depending on the limits. So, you don't want to look weak knowing that you can't stand up to the aggression. At the same time, if you believe strongly that you're beat, you don't want to throw more money at a losing pot. I'm afraid that once that fourth spade fell, there really wasn't a good option left for you. He had the As, any move you would have made would have gone badly for you. I honestly don't see how you could have played the hand any differently for a better outcome. It was just one of those times when the right play didn't work. You're right, the guy shouldn't have been there in the first place. The only positive you can take out of it is that play is gonna burn him 90% of the time. Just take advantage of those other opportunities. | ||
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| Re: Hand question, shorn, 23. Jun 2003 05:53 | ||
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| It hink you played the hand fine all the way through. I particularly like the bet on the turn to not give someone like our hero a free shot if he is holding only 1 spade. You MUST check the river and hope that he checks it down and was on some other draw or just top pair. There are only bad outcomes if you bet: 1. He folds so you win nothing more. 2. He calls with a low spade and you lose a bet. 3. He raises with a high spade and you either fold or lose 2 bets. NONE of these betting options wins you any more $$ and if you are called by him, there is no doubt you are beat. If you were last to act instead of first and he checked the river, then you might bet to represent the flush depending how the hand was played (and you suspected that he was the one afraid of the flush). But, you can't do this if you are first to act. As far as calling his bet on the river, that is a judgement call. A few things to consider are (1) the size of the pot: What kind of odds is it laying you to call? (2) texture of the board: were there any other draws out there that he could have had and missed and now he is representing the flush? This is much more common if only the 3rd spade comes on the river and not the 4th, but still should be considered. (3) Your opponent: Is he the kind of player that would bluff at the river with 4 spades? Also, have you check-raised the river previously so that he knows you are capable of this with a big hand? If so, then he most likely wouldn't bluff at the pot for fear of another CR from you. For the most part, the size of the pot will be big enough to call a good portion of the time when a THIRD spade comes on the river; the 4th is not so clear, but you certainly can't fold everytime. Unfortunately, this is one of those times where you played "with the best of it" all the way through, and he/she got lucky on the end. Don't worry though...he is only "borrowing" that $$ from you as if he continues to play that way, he will be throwing it back in the middle before long. | ||
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| Re: Hand question, mongi, 30. Jun 2003 21:17 | ||
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| I like checking the turn here as well. 1) Your opponent may have the flush. This means you will probably get raised and have a tough decision to make, If you don't improve on the river, assuming you call his raise you will have another tough decision to make. Give yourself the opportunity to improve to the fullboat. 2) If the player in question has one spade in his hand, it is probably a big one and he will call your turn bet no matter what. 3) Your check on the turn may induce a bluff. | ||
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| Re: Hand question, stdioh, 23. Jun 2003 10:43 | ||
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| At this point, your bet to avoid a 4-flush is a questionable one. Since you got the checkraise in on the flop you've shown strength enough that somebody who has made a flush now will get to raise you and drag you along. Don't give them 2 bets. Yes, you've made them pay for their flush, but that doesn't mean that they won't have one. Likewise, you've got outs if they do (only 4 outs, but that is something). I'd say that this is the proper place for a check-call. Of course it is one of those situations where it really depends on your opponents, so I can't say for sure. | ||
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| Re: Hand question, Schuster, 23. Jun 2003 21:55 | ||
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| Hmmm... I respect your abilities a lot, but I'm not sure I see where you're coming from. Granted, I haven't been playing too long in the big scheme of things, and I'm still trying to get my feet on the shoulders of the giants, but Sklansky says on 4th street, you should bet your hands with no outs, and check/call your hands with outs. Granted, my hand did have outs, but the pot odds, even with implied odds, weren't there to call a bet. The story would be different if I had a set, since the pot odds would be there to check and call. If I had been raised, I was ready to fold, as very few low limit players semi bluff the turn after they pick up a draw. What do you think? Lee | ||
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| Re: Hand question, stdioh, 25. Jun 2003 08:58 | ||
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| What I'm getting at is that since there was so much betting on the flop and then the flush card came there are a few likely scenarios. One is that you were beat already on the flop, another is that the opponent made a flush, and another is that you were good the whole way. You only want to put money in on the last of these situations. Yes, you don't want the 4-flush to come and ruin your day, but you aren't going to be able to fold off anybody who called the flop with all that betting. At this point I would consider my chances of winning unimproved fairly small and would consider myself to be likely drawing to 4 outs. Of course it really depends on the players and the table texture. If you're playing against really bad players then you can bet it for value. The problem is that players with the good flush draws will call you, players that you will beat anyway will fold, and if you were planning on tightening up to win then you're paying more than you need to for your 4 outs. Also, if somebody has a made flush, you're getting raised and now you're paying 2 bets to see try to hit your 4 outer, plus a river bet that you'll just have to call because there will be too much money in there. In general I would check here. | ||
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